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Post by psycomonky on Nov 14, 2017 23:40:19 GMT
And that beats jake's survivability doing the same with a charger and being def17? I'm not saying Elara is terrible, I'm saying she isn't in the same league as the options other factions have which was the original question.
Par in the course of juniors is set at def17 immune to kd camping a flag. Hole in one is set at having a +3 armor buff for target model/unit and being available in multiple themes.
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Post by psycomonky on Nov 14, 2017 23:46:41 GMT
My original point was that by and large retribution models are just a little worse off than the alternative models. Houseguard than < Joe Houseguard than + riflemen < Joe + rifle + rockets Etc etc
This is exacerbated by our useful models being scattered haphazard through themes in a way that removes any ability to form a good coherent force. The merc/minion change helped out immensely for other factions but got ret very little in the way of options or solutions. In most cases just more of the same.
O, and circle heavies hit as hard as ret heavies, 18,17,16 so if your calling em pillow fisted then so are ours. The pow18 one loses a gun but the rest always have a rat6 'gun' with some really good effects. They are also more focus/fury efficient due to being warbeasts and are cheaper.
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SeBM
Junior Strategist
Posts: 102
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Post by SeBM on Nov 15, 2017 18:00:35 GMT
Ret is a good faction right now. Not at top faction, not a bottom one, pretty much middle of the pack.
Theme forces are a mixed bag for us. We have some pretty good bonuses but we tend to suffer from hyperspecialization in theme. Forges is okay with a couple of casters but not being able to take Vyre jacks hurts a lot. Defenders is a very good theme for some builds but tends to favor heavily the use of Halberdiers and AFGs. Lots of options but most don't benefit from the theme bonuses. Shadows is super strong in some match ups but it makes it easy to see what's your drop most of the time. I have no opinion on LoD since I haven't played it. On paper, it looks ok to do some things we don't have problem doing with other themes but it doesn't fix any of our problematic match ups.
As far as casters are concerned, we have a good variety of good casters but nothing that stand out a lot, except maybe for Elara2. Issyria, Kaelyssa, Ossyan and Vyros2 are probably next, Rahn, Thyron, Vyros1 and Helynna are also good, only Garryth, Goreshade4 and Ravyn seem weak compared to the rest of the line up.
I think Ret struggles to cover the field with 2 lists more than other factions due to the specialized nature of a lot our troops.
In short, until our CID drops, we are faced with some problematic match ups. We don't ask questions, we answer them and it's very hard to find a 2 list pairing that answer most of the popular questions.
If you are serious about Retribution, I think investing in 2 battle engine is going to be a good move. Having at least one is a necessity IMHO and I think you really need to have one list in Defenders right now. This might change once LoD gets more new models though.
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SeBM
Junior Strategist
Posts: 102
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Post by SeBM on Nov 15, 2017 18:15:57 GMT
Thats what I was missing!!! You crack me up man. Explain to me how a 15/14 solo with no defensive tech and two pow 10 mele attacks is harder to kill or personally hits harder than.. a 15/13 solo with access to +2def making her 17/13 immune to push/slam/place with a handcannon and a pow 10 mele attack a 14/13 solo with sucker, a handcannon, and a pow 11 mele attack a 14/14 solo with stealth, a pow 10 ranged attack, drag, jump and a pow 12 mele attack most of which have access to support from the caster that makes them better or in the case of kador enhances what they already do (readline + boundless charge makes for fast jacks). And don't say hang at the back of the army as the others can do that equally easily and still be more survivable. I have played a lot of games in tournaments with Elara1 before themes became a thing for Ret. I have never had any issues keeping her alive. Speed of Death is an insanely good spell. If you are losing her easily every game, then you are doing something wrong. Her problem right now is more not being available in theme outside of Shadows where it's already pretty hard to get more free points.
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Post by psycomonky on Nov 15, 2017 19:28:05 GMT
Again, that is dodging the question I posed to Tanan. He stated she is a good combat solo with good defensive stats when compared to like models, ala the other journeyman warcasters. Calling out her spell or adding jacks into the equation doesn't make her a stronger combat solo or improve her stats.
Is is easy to keep a model alive if they only have to be within 8 of the back of another model with a 12 in gun. Trivially easy actually but that doesn't make her MORE survivable than similar models in other factions that can do likewise which is what the original claim I protested was.
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Post by psycomonky on Nov 15, 2017 19:36:27 GMT
Aside from Kaelyssa who has a very different toolbox point to the caster than more than three factions (and name those factions) would like to have in their wheelbox losing one of the current common tournament pairings.
I contend that most factions would never take any of those casters if added to their lineup. eg elara2 Just about every faction has a superior damage buf in their wheelhouse. Her feat is +2 speed when charging, pathfinder and immune to freestrikes (yes i know it also allows you to move through buildings). Most factions cover the pathfinder with a solo and +2 speed when charging is good but again most factions have that as a spell somewhere if they want it.
eg Issyria Kador and likely minions have her feat on demand. Legion and Grimkin have her feat for all beasts on demand. Crix has an superior feat to hers while having a vastly more powerful caster behind it. Cygnar has a similar but superior caster and never plays her.
O, and you cannot put vyros2 in legion or skorn as that would be idiotic.
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SeBM
Junior Strategist
Posts: 102
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Post by SeBM on Nov 16, 2017 4:03:46 GMT
There was a point in my sentence. I think only Elara2 is above the curve. Remember that you only need one model in a unit to be within Elara2's control range in order for the whole unit to benefit fromhe feat. It is insanely strong.
Issyria is the next closest thing. Blinding Light is stupidly good but Issyria herself is squishy and has no late game power so it keeps her from being OP.
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SeBM
Junior Strategist
Posts: 102
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Post by SeBM on Nov 16, 2017 4:04:23 GMT
Also, remember that it gives free charges to our jacks as well.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Nov 16, 2017 5:47:59 GMT
The more i play into stuff that has recently come out of CID yhe further I feel Ret is fallimg behind. I feel there is some serious power creep comming out of CID. I got a godlike spray off on champions today with discordia. They had hand of destruction On them, mark target from hemera,I hit 5/6 under the template, boosted damage on 3 of them. I did 28 total damage to them. With sanguine bond none of them died or even had to roll a tough check... and next turn he feated and erased all the damage. I didnt have any more attacks to put into them because i had to commit so much to ensure i one rounded the mountain king ao it wouldnt heal back up.
A few weeks ago i had a grymkin rattler kill an entire 12 man unit in a single turn...
If we dont get some serious tune ups in our CID i don't see us keeping up with this kind of power creep.
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tanan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by tanan on Nov 16, 2017 14:03:32 GMT
My original point was that by and large retribution models are just a little worse off than the alternative models. Houseguard than < Joe Houseguard than + riflemen < Joe + rifle + rockets Agree to disagree. In my opinion, Thane’s abilities are way better than Joe’s. The reason why winter guard is more popular than houseguard isn’t because of Joe, but because Khador has rockets and better warcaster buffs. If retribution warcaster gained Signs and Portents we would see a lot of more shooty houseguard lists. O, and circle heavies hit as hard as ret heavies, 18,17,16 so if your calling em pillow fisted then so are ours. The pow18 one loses a gun but the rest always have a rat6 'gun' with some really good effects. They are also more focus/fury efficient due to being warbeasts and are cheaper. Yes, ret warjacks are pillow fisted when compared to other warjacks. That’s ”problem” that one must suffer to get effectively limitless focus and concentrated power. Also, ret warjacks hit harder than equally priced circle construct warbeasts. Warbeasts (hopefully) make up the difference by having better special rules such as geomancy. However, I have to admit that ret warjacks in general are warbeastier (high cost, high speed, high def, special rules, pillow fisted, always fully powered etc.) than other warjacks. Again, that is dodging the question I posed to Tanan. He stated she is a good combat solo with good defensive stats when compared to like models, ala the other journeyman warcasters. Calling out her spell or adding jacks into the equation doesn't make her a stronger combat solo or improve her stats. Don’t put words in my mouth. I said that Elara1 is an amazing combat solo. I never said that Elara1 had better defensive stats than other junior warcasters. You might think that the latter is needed for the former, but this isn’t the case. Distance, LoS block and nearby shield guards are far more important for solo survival than extra point in ARM or DEF. The reason why I think that Elara1 is one the best combat solos in the game is her ability to maintain the best possible distance to enemy with apparation, Speed of Death, pathfinder and side step.
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Post by adakai on Nov 17, 2017 19:12:34 GMT
The more i play into stuff that has recently come out of CID yhe further I feel Ret is fallimg behind. I feel there is some serious power creep comming out of CID. I got a godlike spray off on champions today with discordia. They had hand of destruction On them, mark target from hemera,I hit 5/6 under the template, boosted damage on 3 of them. I did 28 total damage to them. With sanguine bond none of them died or even had to roll a tough check... and next turn he feated and erased all the damage. I didnt have any more attacks to put into them because i had to commit so much to ensure i one rounded the mountain king ao it wouldnt heal back up. A few weeks ago i had a grymkin rattler kill an entire 12 man unit in a single turn... If we dont get some serious tune ups in our CID i don't see us keeping up with this kind of power creep. I'm not sure though - I feel if you put in enough resources to kill a mountain king on 1 turn, you did some great work right there =D, maybe hold off on the champs until the following turn haha. I played with (10 games) and against (3 games) the Madrak 1 list - the one mistake I see people constantly making is committing barely enough to scratch the surface of the champs. They are like a heavy warjack that can arbitrarily shrug off high spikes in damage either from sanguine bond or just choosing to take 5 damage and chancing a tough roll. Definitely takes a bit of volume of attack/high pow attacks to really cut through them (which not every list readily provides)
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