demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Oct 4, 2017 17:37:17 GMT
Cavalry should always be used as a flanking unit. If you want to get better use out of the vengers, run them up the side of the board and box your enemy in with an L shape, where one side is the vengers and the others is your exemplars. Your opponent will be forced to either spread out his forces to take on both, or trample one side, leaving them vulnerable to the side. This is actually the reason to have things like Avatar of Menoth or using the book for its holy shroud, as it allows you to defend one complete side without expending a lot of resources. This also fixes your issue of tangled units, as if they are attacking from two different sides, they won't be running into each other. If you run double, you can also use the "U" formation, which always leads to a pocket around their caster; something your jacks on the front line can easily break apart for an assassination run. That's just basic field play though; it's different when you have to calculate for terrain.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Oct 4, 2017 19:06:48 GMT
I also have the double vengers to try at some point, really looking forward to seeing what makes them tick. I've run a full unit under vindictus last week I'm two games. They did fairly well, but with a full unit behind Knights exemplar they tended to get a bit tangled together. I won both games with the list but it wasn't down to the vengers doing the heavy lifting. Any hints to lists with them from anyone? Kreoss3. Kreoss3 is what makes them tick. Here's my current list. It has dropped two games in MK. III and won... 12? A lot. I stopped counting. Kreoss3 -Hierophant -Reckoner -Redeemer Choir (min) Vengers (max) Vengers (max) Flame Bringers (max) Gravus Wrack Gravus provides immunity to mass KD/Stationary effects for the Vengers and Kreoss3, which are anathema to this list. I originally had the Covenant, Rhupert, and a Wrack in place of him. Pathfinder that you control is a really big deal and the Covenant is always good, but Gravus' melee punch has been worthwhile for me. YMMV. I have tested out several 'jack loadout configurations but settled on this one in order to consistently threaten a Force Hammer assassination and play a point down. I am currently considering swapping the Reckoner for Fire of Salvation. The Reckoner is usually not in position to contribute to the assassination run and is mostly a non-factor in games played. Fire would provide me some more Dispel on a stick and a serious, hard-hitting presence. I am also now considering this Exemplar Interdiction list. Kreoss3 -Reckoner -Redemeer Gravus Rhupert 2x Wracks Meckanik Vassal (free!) Choir (min) Vengers (max) Vengers (max) Idrians (max) + CA (free!) Free stuff and Idrians synergize well with Kreoss3 (they take both Arcane Ward and Ignite well). And now the Reckoner and Redeemer have Blessed Weapons. It's funny, though - is Rhupert + Blessed ranged weapons + 4 free points of stuff + 2" deployment zone better than one squad of Flame Bringers? They do so much work for me in my Kreoss3 games that this is actually a tough question. I have also been using a variant of the above list with Errants + support instead. It depends on how our new Exemplar solo shakes out - if he provides Tactician, I may consider Errants over the Idrians.
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Fire Step
Junior Strategist
Everyday I'm Wrastlin'
Posts: 334
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Post by Fire Step on Oct 6, 2017 13:57:33 GMT
I also have the double vengers to try at some point, really looking forward to seeing what makes them tick. I've run a full unit under vindictus last week I'm two games. They did fairly well, but with a full unit behind Knights exemplar they tended to get a bit tangled together. I won both games with the list but it wasn't down to the vengers doing the heavy lifting. Any hints to lists with them from anyone? Kreoss3. Kreoss3 is what makes them tick. Here's my current list. It has dropped two games in MK. III and won... 12? A lot. I stopped counting. Kreoss3 -Hierophant -Reckoner -Redeemer Choir (min) Vengers (max) Vengers (max) Flame Bringers (max) Gravus Wrack Gravus provides immunity to mass KD/Stationary effects for the Vengers and Kreoss3, which are anathema to this list. I originally had the Covenant, Rhupert, and a Wrack in place of him. Pathfinder that you control is a really big deal and the Covenant is always good, but Gravus' melee punch has been worthwhile for me. YMMV. I have tested out several 'jack loadout configurations but settled on this one in order to consistently threaten a Force Hammer assassination and play a point down. I am currently considering swapping the Reckoner for Fire of Salvation. The Reckoner is usually not in position to contribute to the assassination run and is mostly a non-factor in games played. Fire would provide me some more Dispel on a stick and a serious, hard-hitting presence. I am also now considering this Exemplar Interdiction list. Kreoss3 -Reckoner -Redemeer Gravus Rhupert 2x Wracks Meckanik Vassal (free!) Choir (min) Vengers (max) Vengers (max) Idrians (max) + CA (free!) Free stuff and Idrians synergize well with Kreoss3 (they take both Arcane Ward and Ignite well). And now the Reckoner and Redeemer have Blessed Weapons. It's funny, though - is Rhupert + Blessed ranged weapons + 4 free points of stuff + 2" deployment zone better than one squad of Flame Bringers? They do so much work for me in my Kreoss3 games that this is actually a tough question. I have also been using a variant of the above list with Errants + support instead. It depends on how our new Exemplar solo shakes out - if he provides Tactician, I may consider Errants over the Idrians. Any reason for no Fire of Salvation? I really like the flamebringer list. I think that's proper interesting. I keep swinging back to Vindictus when writing Exemplar lists, it feels like true path and def ward on him, coupled with his feat, really pulls Vindictus into most list builds for me. Have you found divine inspiration making a big difference in the targets the vengers are hitting?
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Oct 6, 2017 15:40:46 GMT
I don't take Fire because his targets are already covered by the ten Vengers, sometimes Gravus, and sometimes Kreoss3. This list has enough ways to kill heavy stuff dead. Also, the Reckoner can really contribute to keeping Kreoss3 safe from Warbeast assassination (Arcane Ward + Ashen Veil = DEF 18 and that's a tough cookie to hit). That said, I did mention that I am considering swapping for Fire just because it's one more heavy threat they have to worry about and I don't entirely give up the Force Hammer assassination threat. I like it better in my Exemplar Interdiction list just because I can keep him near the Idrians to proc his rules. The Flame Bringers/Vengers list is just too fast.
Vindictus is amazing, but I think he does more for regular Knights Exemplar than Vengers. Vengers are a bit pillowfisted if the opponent doesn't damage them, and canny opponents won't do so until they have to deal with them. The approximate 50% split on a full squad of undamaged Vengers charging a Khador heavy is 25, and that assumes your entire squad is in range and can fit to get attacks in. Both rarely happen, in my experience.
Kreoss3 brings two tools to solve this problem. First, Divine Inspiration is seriously huge. It averages out to about 1.5 additional damage points per attack, but it's important to note how it does this. By removing low numbers, it effectively shrinks the curve and cuts out the low end. This raises the probability for rolls to fall on the higher end of the curve and leads to a higher chance of "dice spikes." For example, I charge and throw four dice, rolling a 1, 2, 6, and 6. On a normal four dice roll, this is good and is above the median roll (14), but not egregiously so. However, chop out the 1 and compare to a standard three dice roll (10 or 11). Now I am much further up on the curve without rolling like a gambling god. It gets worse when you throw things like three 6s and a 1.
Kreoss3's other tool is Ignite. This can be used to get an undamaged unit of Vengers up to POW 16 or double down on a wounded squad and get them up to POW 18. Compare the same unit of 5 Vengers charging a Khador heavy under Kreoss3 versus Vindictus. All we are doing is assuming the same things, that all five land on their target, but this time we add Kreoss3's Ignite and Divine Inspiration to the mix. The rough median damage rises from 25 to 42. So, roughly 50% of the time, you overkill a Khador 'jack by 8 damage versus leaving it alive on 9 boxes. I think that's a pretty big swing. And god help them if they triggered Battle Driven.
Kreoss3 doesn't change Vengers' targets. Vengers have a very narrow toolbox with few attacks. Their entire game plan is to get damaged, get pissed, and go wreck a heavy. Kreoss3 puts them into the position to actually do that once they connect. Vindictus helps them get there, but with a native 13" threat range, they're already our longest natural melee threat in the faction and on the higher end of things overall.
Flame Bringers, funny enough, are what I use instead to help Vengers hit. With Arcane Ward, they become a serious pain for people to deal with. Everyone stays out of their charge range on the bottom of 1/top of 2, but it is nigh impossible to stay out of their run and engage range and still be in the game. I have had opponents blow entire turns clearing Flame Bringers off them that I just ran in there, allowing me to get prime scenario position and just wait for them to come in. It really puts people in a tough spot and usually causes them to weakly commit to zones, for fear of losing 2+ heavies in a single turn to the Vengers. And that's to say nothing of Kreoss3 and his 'jacks, who are generally just bullies.
Edit: I will add a caveat. Vindictus makes Vengers playable into Cygnar with True Path, Defender's Ward, and his Feat. My Kreoss3 lists wilt against Cygnar firepower, but Vindy can give them what they need to get there. He can also do things like help them get the alpha on Circle and Cryx. I see a lot of Khador, with fewer Cygnar and Cryx options, and then several Hordes lists that run Warbeast heavy. For my meta, Kreoss3 is a stronger choice for Vengers, with my other list covering Cygnar and Cryx (was Kreoss1, but I'm revisiting Sevy2). If you want to get Vengers cooking against Cygnar, though, Vindy is going to be your man.
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Fire Step
Junior Strategist
Everyday I'm Wrastlin'
Posts: 334
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Post by Fire Step on Oct 9, 2017 11:42:18 GMT
I don't take Fire because his targets are already covered by the ten Vengers, sometimes Gravus, and sometimes Kreoss3. This list has enough ways to kill heavy stuff dead. Also, the Reckoner can really contribute to keeping Kreoss3 safe from Warbeast assassination (Arcane Ward + Ashen Veil = DEF 18 and that's a tough cookie to hit). That said, I did mention that I am considering swapping for Fire just because it's one more heavy threat they have to worry about and I don't entirely give up the Force Hammer assassination threat. I like it better in my Exemplar Interdiction list just because I can keep him near the Idrians to proc his rules. The Flame Bringers/Vengers list is just too fast. Vindictus is amazing, but I think he does more for regular Knights Exemplar than Vengers. Vengers are a bit pillowfisted if the opponent doesn't damage them, and canny opponents won't do so until they have to deal with them. The approximate 50% split on a full squad of undamaged Vengers charging a Khador heavy is 25, and that assumes your entire squad is in range and can fit to get attacks in. Both rarely happen, in my experience. Kreoss3 brings two tools to solve this problem. First, Divine Inspiration is seriously huge. It averages out to about 1.5 additional damage points per attack, but it's important to note how it does this. By removing low numbers, it effectively shrinks the curve and cuts out the low end. This raises the probability for rolls to fall on the higher end of the curve and leads to a higher chance of "dice spikes." For example, I charge and throw four dice, rolling a 1, 2, 6, and 6. On a normal four dice roll, this is good and is above the median roll (14), but not egregiously so. However, chop out the 1 and compare to a standard three dice roll (10 or 11). Now I am much further up on the curve without rolling like a gambling god. It gets worse when you throw things like three 6s and a 1. Kreoss3's other tool is Ignite. This can be used to get an undamaged unit of Vengers up to POW 16 or double down on a wounded squad and get them up to POW 18. Compare the same unit of 5 Vengers charging a Khador heavy under Kreoss3 versus Vindictus. All we are doing is assuming the same things, that all five land on their target, but this time we add Kreoss3's Ignite and Divine Inspiration to the mix. The rough median damage rises from 25 to 42. So, roughly 50% of the time, you overkill a Khador 'jack by 8 damage versus leaving it alive on 9 boxes. I think that's a pretty big swing. And god help them if they triggered Battle Driven. Kreoss3 doesn't change Vengers' targets. Vengers have a very narrow toolbox with few attacks. Their entire game plan is to get damaged, get pissed, and go wreck a heavy. Kreoss3 puts them into the position to actually do that once they connect. Vindictus helps them get there, but with a native 13" threat range, they're already our longest natural melee threat in the faction and on the higher end of things overall. Flame Bringers, funny enough, are what I use instead to help Vengers hit. With Arcane Ward, they become a serious pain for people to deal with. Everyone stays out of their charge range on the bottom of 1/top of 2, but it is nigh impossible to stay out of their run and engage range and still be in the game. I have had opponents blow entire turns clearing Flame Bringers off them that I just ran in there, allowing me to get prime scenario position and just wait for them to come in. It really puts people in a tough spot and usually causes them to weakly commit to zones, for fear of losing 2+ heavies in a single turn to the Vengers. And that's to say nothing of Kreoss3 and his 'jacks, who are generally just bullies. Edit: I will add a caveat. Vindictus makes Vengers playable into Cygnar with True Path, Defender's Ward, and his Feat. My Kreoss3 lists wilt against Cygnar firepower, but Vindy can give them what they need to get there. He can also do things like help them get the alpha on Circle and Cryx. I see a lot of Khador, with fewer Cygnar and Cryx options, and then several Hordes lists that run Warbeast heavy. For my meta, Kreoss3 is a stronger choice for Vengers, with my other list covering Cygnar and Cryx (was Kreoss1, but I'm revisiting Sevy2). If you want to get Vengers cooking against Cygnar, though, Vindy is going to be your man. I think with any high value "glass cannon"-like unit such as Vengers or exemplar Knights, you have to factor in how they're going to be delivered. I used vindictus to great effect over the last few weeks with Knights, because the two things they struggle with (speed and being shot off the table) he fixes. My issue with Vindictus is the fact his game plan is almost exactly the same every game- turn 1, cast true path, Def ward, walk, feat sometimes depending on opponent army, everything runs. Then every turn after that he stands dead still and sometimes casts true path. His personal game isn't really all that exciting. That's why I'm now looking at casters like kreoss and thyra- they may not have the same delivery tools he does, bit their personal impact is higher which is also important.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Oct 11, 2017 16:49:15 GMT
Yeah, Vindy is dead boring. Was that way last edition as well. He's very much an army enabler and doesn't personally contribute to the fight. Fortunately, that means that you rarely expose him and he is thus more resilient to assassination than some of our other 'casters.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Oct 11, 2017 17:19:32 GMT
Anyone know anything about Gade ? He's out today, but no info on what he does, it seems...
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Post by garou on Oct 11, 2017 17:23:04 GMT
Unless you read the insider...
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Oct 11, 2017 17:54:48 GMT
Thanks! Looks decent for 0pts
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Fire Step
Junior Strategist
Everyday I'm Wrastlin'
Posts: 334
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Post by Fire Step on Oct 13, 2017 20:55:11 GMT
Anyone got any Thyra conversion ideas? I have just put mine together but she's a bit of an odd model. Looking at the artwork, she's much more dynamic, leaping from rubble with two flaming swords. The actual model on the other hand is in an odd twisting... walking(?) pose. I have an idea to cut off the top half of the torso and replace it with a daughter of the flame, add on thyra's arms and smoke stacks/flags to the torso. Thoughts?
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Post by chillychinaman on Oct 18, 2017 22:36:38 GMT
So, now that the Sanguine Bond changes are live, is anyone planning on fielding Bastions? Or was the loss of 3boxes too important?
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Oct 18, 2017 22:47:32 GMT
So, now that the Sanguine Bond changes are live, is anyone planning on fielding Bastions? Or was the loss of 3boxes too important? I still won't be playing them, but that's because mine are unpainted, although they're not moving up the queue any time soon. The sanguine bond fix does help them, but they have other issues to overcome as well in my opinion. I think it's the lack of armour, lack of hitting power and lack of speed that hurt them. The boxes don't help and I don't think that's going to be changed.
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Post by W0lfBane on Oct 18, 2017 23:05:59 GMT
So, now that the Sanguine Bond changes are live, is anyone planning on fielding Bastions? Or was the loss of 3boxes too important? I still won't be playing them, but that's because mine are unpainted, although they're not moving up the queue any time soon. The sanguine bond fix does help them, but they have other issues to overcome as well in my opinion. I think it's the lack of armour, lack of hitting power and lack of speed that hurt them. The boxes don't help and I don't think that's going to be changed. I mean if they have enough boxes so that they will never die I'd take them despite lack of speed and hitting power I would love them to have d strike though
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Post by chillychinaman on Oct 18, 2017 23:16:15 GMT
So, now that the Sanguine Bond changes are live, is anyone planning on fielding Bastions? Or was the loss of 3boxes too important? I still won't be playing them, but that's because mine are unpainted, although they're not moving up the queue any time soon. The sanguine bond fix does help them, but they have other issues to overcome as well in my opinion. I think it's the lack of armour, lack of hitting power and lack of speed that hurt them. The boxes don't help and I don't think that's going to be changed. Weren't they good/okay in Mk2? I don't recall their offense being affected during the transition to Mk3. Maybe a drop is POW, I don't think that is significant enough to ruin the unit.
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Post by c0deb1ue on Oct 18, 2017 23:21:10 GMT
So, now that the Sanguine Bond changes are live, is anyone planning on fielding Bastions? Or was the loss of 3boxes too important? No chance. They have victim stats even with DW and not enough boxes to make sanguine bond worth it. And can you say slow? They need a survivability fix badly as why take them over knights exemplar... and when you get there they have 1attack each..
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