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Post by droopingpuppy on Aug 29, 2017 8:19:20 GMT
Well, as a Cygnar gamer, my faction have a lackluster unit - Stormguard Infantry(I am eager to also add Silver Line Stormguard, though, but at least they are simply better than Stormguard Infantry and at least they have a use). They have victim stat, but supposed to be take the front... so they are either simply slaughtered at all or keep walking behind of us but due to their plain damage output there is no merit to protect them.
And Ryssovass Defenders are simply worse than them. DEF 12, but they have no ways to withstand RAT 5 POW 10~11 rifles, their 'defensive tech' only do something while in melee, and their damage capability is not so good either.
I know that they have Tough and immune to knocked down, and consider they can keep Tough while they are alive they are survives better than ARM 17 if they face POW 11 and survives slightly worse if they face POW 10. But is that enough?
Simply put, are they have any competitiveness over Dawnguard Sentinel? or even Mage Hunter Infiltrators? I am baffled to see Ryssovass.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 29, 2017 8:43:48 GMT
Once they get a theme they will be, one of the reasons why themes are now the default way to play is so that you do not have similar melee units directly competing
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Post by fedeii on Aug 29, 2017 9:03:35 GMT
I've tried them with Issyria, Goreshade4 and Helynna. I love the models, and really wanted to field them.
You absolutely need to protect the unit. Be it inviolable resolve, discordia or deceleration, without defensive tech it won't last much. And even the defensive tech can only help them so much.
Still, when they get there i find precision strike much better than the +2 pow of sentinels. Once engaged, def 14 improves their survivability a lot. I especially liked them with Goreshade4 for ghostly and revive.
They are definitely a weaker choice compared to sentinels, but are 8 points cheaper, which could be, for example, a chimera.
Tough is fun, but so unreliable you simply can't afford to plan upon it. But defensive tech + tough often usually allow a non insubstiantial part of the unit to survive.
I wouldn't play the defenders against cygnar or retribution, but otherwise i feel they can be fielded. The theme will hopefully give them the edge they need to be truly competitive.
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Post by Dirhavel on Aug 29, 2017 9:12:07 GMT
Haven't played them yet but I plan to give it a try soon with Kaelyssa (http://lormahordes.freeforums.net/thread/2205/nyss-boat).
In my eyes they definitely are weaker than sentinels, but at 16 points it's easier to field two units and still have points left for something else. Maybe just maybe having 20 tough no-KD bodies on the table can be worth something. It hasn't helped troll infantry much in MK3, but I'm thinking with a caster that can deliver them that might have some value.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Aug 30, 2017 4:10:40 GMT
So, it is right that they are not so good, but Precision Strike seems worthy sometimes....
Yes, it seems that it is not a good idea to use them against Cygnar or Retribution, at least. Perhaps also Protectorate, who have Idrian Skirmishers.
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dagowit
Junior Strategist
Posts: 171
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Post by dagowit on Aug 30, 2017 8:40:39 GMT
I have heard others report that the points difference makes Defenders OK when compared to Sentinels.
I don't know how things are where you live but here Cryx is the new upcoming scare - and not just Ghost Fleet. I want a unit that can withstand impact attacks and has sufficiently high DEF to have Cryx miss some of the time. Defenders seem like they could work in this role.
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Post by elladan52 on Aug 30, 2017 12:26:14 GMT
Purely based on theory, I think they look fine. The need more help getting delivered, but once stuck in they should do pretty well.
Once I get then on the table I'll say more, but I am very excited to try them in an all nyss list. Hopefully that theme comes out next month.
As for casters to try, Elara2, Kaelyssa, Issyria, G4, and Helynna all seem like good places to start.
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Post by fedeii on Aug 30, 2017 12:31:00 GMT
I have heard others report that the points difference makes Defenders OK when compared to Sentinels. I don't know how things are where you live but here Cryx is the new upcoming scare - and not just Ghost Fleet. I want a unit that can withstand impact attacks and has sufficiently high DEF to have Cryx miss some of the time. Defenders seem like they could work in this role. Yes, cryx is also in my meta a concern. But both skarre and deneghra (very common cryx drop) have easy access to great def fixers. And soulless can't help us against carnage and feats. I usually prefer units like nyss or mage hunters (maybe even invictors? Though i've never fielded them against cryx), because a ranged presence makes all the difference against cryx infantries (and they also have def 14). Also, precision strike is relatively wasted, as the faction doesn't often make use of many jacks. Still, maybe tough makes a difference? Which caster do you use them with? Also, have someone ever tried the defenders with the healer and not b2b? I'm not sure if it's worth it or the solo dies immediately (5" isn't much).
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Aug 30, 2017 15:38:25 GMT
I've been enjoying them. It helps to play a caster that can protect them, but once they're in melee they're much more difficult to remove than Sentinals, especially by Warjacks/Beasts. The more the balance of their attacker swings to low-volume/high-POW the better they do. DEF14 means that many jacks have to consider boosting and Tough means that 1/3 of the time even that isn't enough. Compared to Sentinals who die very easily to warjacks and beasts once they get in. Precision Strike can help a lot since they can just carve out the Cortex.
I've run them with Ghyrrshyld as a second wave to Halberdiers, which tends to provide enough threatening targets that opponents aren't able to focus them early. Also with Elara2 who helps make up for their SPD. I would imagine Kaelyssa, Ossyan, maybe even Issyria can make good use of them with either DEF buffs or ARM buffs.
Plus as others have said they're significantly cheaper than Sentinals. Even if you take the Priest to make them MAT8 they're 4 points cheaper, which can get you a pretty wide range of useful solos in Ret.
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faelin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 121
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Post by faelin on Aug 30, 2017 18:10:30 GMT
The one time I played them + priest, they managed to go toe to toe with sentinels and won. They really want a defensive spell to help bump them up just a little. I see them as a way to trade up. Take a unit of defenders and trade them for a more expensive unit.
I love the priest. He syngergizes really well with them. Defenders want to be close for defensive line. That means your enemy will have to group up too if he wants to get as many of his people into melee with your clustered defenders.Use that to your advantage. Spray with your priest for your counter attack
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Post by psycomonky on Aug 30, 2017 19:01:09 GMT
I'm not sure why everyone says they are 8 pts less than sentinels, they are 6 points less, 2 if you include the priest.
Generally I don't compare them to sentinels. They aren't even in the same league. They are more like halberds. Similar defensive stats but with the addition of tough. With the priest they hit about as hard as halbs under the minifeat; mat8 on both, pow 14 vs pow10wm. That is fine on the charge but a little lack luster against heavies with no charge (also ok vs most troops with no charge).
Generally, they don't deliver themselves to get a reliable charge, don't hit hard enough outside of a charge, and don't survive well enough to compete with the other options. Any defensive spells on them would be better spent on one of the other, superior, units.
Here's hoping for a good theme bonus, I'm hoping for harm on the priest. Until that comes my 2c is don't bother with em.
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Aug 30, 2017 21:21:30 GMT
Generally, they don't deliver themselves to get a reliable charge, don't hit hard enough outside of a charge, and don't survive well enough to compete with the other options. Any defensive spells on them would be better spent on one of the other, superior, units.I disagree, and I'll point again to my earlier example: heavy jacks and beasts. The Ryssovass are our best jam against those targets because their DEF is high enough to make boosting a consideration and Tough, while not totally reliable, creates situations that waste Focus/Fury. This math is going to be a bit rough but here we go. For comparison: Sentinals: DEF12 ARM17(b2b) Halberdiers: DEF13 ARM18 Swordsmen: DEF13 ARM13 Infiltrators: DEF14 ARM11 Defenders: DEF14(b2b) ARM15 Tough vs a Juggernaught at MAT7 POW 15/19 with full Focus Sentinals: 83% hit 98%/100% kill: ~4 hits 4 kills Halberdiers: 72% hit 92% kill: ~3-4 hits 3-4 kills Swordsmen: 72% hit 100% kill: ~3-4 hits 3-4 kills Infiltrators: 58% hit 100% kill: ~2-3 hits 2-3 kills Defenders: 58% hit 100% boxed 66% kill: ~2-3 hits 1-2 kills I'm not a math dude so those numbers are rough, but I think they're accurate enough for my point. Against a high-MAT high-POW target they have the best survivability of any of our troops. In addition, as long as they remain B2B they can continue making Tough rolls. The numbers are even better against a MAT6 enemy where the chance to hit drops to 41% without boosting. I think one of the interesting things about Ret's current selection of melee infantry is that they are largely defined by what they defend the best against. Sentinals can weather most anti-infantry shooting and blast damage, Halbs can take a charge, Swordsmen can dodge most shooting (and make opponents wary of charging), Infiltrators are immune to most direct shooting, and Ryssovass can tank heavies. They do need some help getting in to melee but once they're there they become very hard to dislodge without an out for Tough or very high MAT.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Aug 31, 2017 9:41:24 GMT
I'm not sure why everyone says they are 8 pts less than sentinels, they are 6 points less, 2 if you include the priest. Generally I don't compare them to sentinels. They aren't even in the same league. They are more like halberds. Similar defensive stats but with the addition of tough. With the priest they hit about as hard as halbs under the minifeat; mat8 on both, pow 14 vs pow10wm. That is fine on the charge but a little lack luster against heavies with no charge (also ok vs most troops with no charge). Generally, they don't deliver themselves to get a reliable charge, don't hit hard enough outside of a charge, and don't survive well enough to compete with the other options. Any defensive spells on them would be better spent on one of the other, superior, units. Here's hoping for a good theme bonus, I'm hoping for harm on the priest. Until that comes my 2c is don't bother with em. DEF 13 and 12 have a hugh gap. They are never had 'similar stat.' Generally, they don't deliver themselves to get a reliable charge, don't hit hard enough outside of a charge, and don't survive well enough to compete with the other options. Any defensive spells on them would be better spent on one of the other, superior, units.I disagree, and I'll point again to my earlier example: heavy jacks and beasts. The Ryssovass are our best jam against those targets because their DEF is high enough to make boosting a consideration and Tough, while not totally reliable, creates situations that waste Focus/Fury. This math is going to be a bit rough but here we go. For comparison: Sentinals: DEF12 ARM17(b2b) Halberdiers: DEF13 ARM18 Swordsmen: DEF13 ARM13 Infiltrators: DEF14 ARM11 Defenders: DEF14(b2b) ARM15 Tough vs a Juggernaught at MAT7 POW 15/19 with full Focus Sentinals: 83% hit 98%/100% kill: ~4 hits 4 kills Halberdiers: 72% hit 92% kill: ~3-4 hits 3-4 kills Swordsmen: 72% hit 100% kill: ~3-4 hits 3-4 kills Infiltrators: 58% hit 100% kill: ~2-3 hits 2-3 kills Defenders: 58% hit 100% boxed 66% kill: ~2-3 hits 1-2 kills I'm not a math dude so those numbers are rough, but I think they're accurate enough for my point. Against a high-MAT high-POW target they have the best survivability of any of our troops. In addition, as long as they remain B2B they can continue making Tough rolls. The numbers are even better against a MAT6 enemy where the chance to hit drops to 41% without boosting. I think one of the interesting things about Ret's current selection of melee infantry is that they are largely defined by what they defend the best against. Sentinals can weather most anti-infantry shooting and blast damage, Halbs can take a charge, Swordsmen can dodge most shooting (and make opponents wary of charging), Infiltrators are immune to most direct shooting, and Ryssovass can tank heavies. They do need some help getting in to melee but once they're there they become very hard to dislodge without an out for Tough or very high MAT. Why do you refer the enemy melee attacks, which is not an issue at all for delivering? It is ranged attack what you need to be consider in order to deliver them. Sure, they are able to jam the enemy, before you have look for DEF 14 Mage Hunter Infiltrators, who are always have DEF 14, have Stealth&Pathfinder, as well as SPD 7, with two attacks that is able to kill the infantry. They are do nothing against armors, but I don't think that warjacks and warbeasts are able to get past them easily. AND they are only 8/13 points. Let's look at Lyssovass Defenders; They are only have DEF 12. And RAT 5, which is the stat of the vast majority of shooters in West Immoren, can hits them by about 58%. Not to mention about some RAT 6+ elite shooters. It means that they are killed against ranged attacks so easily. Although no knockdown&Tough makes them slightly durable than the other victim stat groups, even Dawnguard Sentinels are able to do that too.
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Aug 31, 2017 11:15:51 GMT
That's why I said you have to deliver them, and I talked about ways to do that. I was talking about their melee defensive stats because that is what they are for; jamming in melee. Infiltrators can do similar things, yes, but they are more vulnerable to blast damage, don't hit as hard,can't engage as many models at once, and don't have Tough.
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Post by psycomonky on Aug 31, 2017 18:13:16 GMT
I agree with most of what you said, my main issue is this.
Sentinels are good against heavies and the things that prey on infantry. If you can deliver them and then use the arm buf they are a nightmare to remove as heavies cant do it fast enough and infantry are unreliable. Rys are decent against heavies (and cheaper which is also good) but are eaten by things that kill infantry, especially guns.
In general heavies don't clear out infantry well anyways, or if they do its the low cost high fury heavies that have 6+ attacks ala walking warpwolf feral which is going to get everyone in range regardless of defensive stats.
I'm still hopeful for a good theme. Also replacing hard with something else, that is such a corner case rule...
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