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Post by Gaston on Aug 29, 2017 3:22:39 GMT
Helga does not grant them an extra die? Unless you are trying the slam trick?
But yet, with proper support and positioning, each Valk hits about as hard as 2 Dawnguard Sentinels.
Before you get too over the moon, Dawnguard Sentinels are 1.8 points per model, and Valks 2.6, I believe, for comparison. And it requires support to get the Valks up to their base level.
I am not saying they are bad, but tempering my optimism. I still think 24 points for 9 models is very expensive, and would like to see them drop to 7 per unit if at all possible (2.3 pts per model)
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Post by Tenzilla on Aug 29, 2017 3:47:35 GMT
I'm so sad I haven't got to put these ladies on the table yet for some testing. I had a tournament this past weekend, and another in 2 weeks so I need to switch my lists and start practicing again. So I'm keeping a close eye on this thread and reports with calls. Thanks for the updates guys, keep it up.
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Post by gobber on Aug 29, 2017 4:00:13 GMT
Helga does not grant them an extra die? Unless you are trying the slam trick? Yeah that's what I was referring to. Optimistic, but with WWFF bringing her totem/raider/efaarit friends it's probably worth mentioning now.
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Post by custardboy on Aug 29, 2017 4:26:23 GMT
I had 3 games yesterday, 1 with Arkadius and 2 with Helga and 2 units of Valkyries. I found WWFF is just too strong with Arkadius. Something needs to be done about the advance move. The enemy already has little breathing room against him when you go first, when you get advance move they can get hit in their deployment zone on top of 2. Overtake made the battle boar not even try to adrenalize as other beasts just do it better.
Valkyries were... ok? Their stats are exactly what you don't want, really. Against Cygnar they all died over 2 turns, not a single attack that went their way (melee or ranged or shield guard) had them survive. They seriously need +1 armour or 8 boxes- the same issue as all multiwound infantry except that they actively try to intercept the bullets. Against Skorne they were better as there were more unboosted POW 10's flying around. Their guns are not bad. Their melee is awful, they were just milling around needing 8's to hit or 10's to break against everything on the table in both games. I'd often just take more stuff and absorb the casualties rather than make it so the casualties are Valkyries. Point blank isn't a flat buff, sometimes you want assault, but it's a good start. Give them +1 arm on top of that and maybe +1 pow instead of crit KD and they might be good to go.
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Post by Gaston on Aug 29, 2017 12:03:14 GMT
I found WWFF is just too strong with Arkadius. Something needs to be done about the advance move. The enemy already has little breathing room against him when you go first, when you get advance move they can get hit in their deployment zone on top of 2. I think it is ok for Minions to actually have something on the upper side of the balance curve and due to the faction structure we will not be getting it via models, only themes.
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Post by custardboy on Aug 29, 2017 12:33:56 GMT
Getting good stuff is good. It felt too strong AND it pushes our top casters even further ahead of the pack. If we use arbitrary numbers to represent power scale, Helga is an 11 and Arkadius is a 20, Helga gets a +3 from the theme and Arkadius gets +8. Now we have a 14 vs 28. We don't need that.
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Post by Tenzilla on Aug 29, 2017 13:16:49 GMT
Getting good stuff is good. It felt too strong AND it pushes our top casters even further ahead of the pack. If we use arbitrary numbers to represent power scale, Helga is an 11 and Arkadius is a 20, Helga gets a +3 from the theme and Arkadius gets +8. Now we have a 14 vs 28. We don't need that. I think this is fine. Arkadius is not the only one threatening deployment turn2, that far more common than you might think. Also our pig heavies under Dr. Ark are still pretty fragile, which is one of his biggest weaknesses. And the theme does not cover any of his weakness outside of free shield guards. The theme only exemplifies his strengths. What you say is true our best casters get better with this theme, Rask and dr.ark come to mind for sure, but there are more models and more themes to come.
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Post by Azahul on Aug 29, 2017 22:47:31 GMT
And the theme does not cover any of his weakness outside of free shield guards. The theme only exemplifies his strengths. This is what's bugged me most about my theme force. It makes all my lists better, but it improves them mostly into what they were already good into. Cygnar is the big exception though. I don't need to worry about Haley2 at all thanks to her upcoming nerfs, Overtake makes it much easier to trade heavies into Storm Lances, and two free Shield Guards mitigate the effectiveness of the Hurricane quite considerably. That's pretty huge.
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Post by Gaston on Aug 29, 2017 23:45:24 GMT
WM/H is a game structured around stacking strengths?
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Post by custardboy on Aug 29, 2017 23:58:52 GMT
I'm quite happy for the weaknesses of lists to not be covered. What I'd like to see is the strengths of the weaker casters/models exemplified. I had two games with Helga in WWFF after testing Arkadius. She was on the back foot but better than in Thornfall, and I kept thinking 'this game would be over if I used Arkadius/Carver.'
I think I'll give Midas a roll today.
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Post by Gaston on Aug 30, 2017 0:12:58 GMT
I'm quite happy for the weaknesses of lists to not be covered. What I'd like to see is the strengths of the weaker casters/models exemplified. I had two games with Helga in WWFF after testing Arkadius. She was on the back foot but better than in Thornfall, and I kept thinking 'this game would be over if I used Arkadius/Carver.' I think I'll give Midas a roll today. Which begs a thought exercise: what benefits could a theme force provide that brings Helga up to Arkadius's level if they are both available in theme? Or will she lag behind every time?
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Post by custardboy on Aug 30, 2017 0:34:36 GMT
Fair enough, at a baseline level she's far weaker than Arkadius. I don't think that's possible without their relative abilities being changed. We're just in the situation where our mixed arms casters are weaker than our beast casters, thus ideally want to see the mixed arms theme competitive with the beast theme.
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Post by gobber on Aug 30, 2017 0:37:49 GMT
I'm quite happy for the weaknesses of lists to not be covered. What I'd like to see is the strengths of the weaker casters/models exemplified. I had two games with Helga in WWFF after testing Arkadius. She was on the back foot but better than in Thornfall, and I kept thinking 'this game would be over if I used Arkadius/Carver.' I think I'll give Midas a roll today. Which begs a thought exercise: what benefits could a theme force provide that brings Helga up to Arkadius's level if they are both available in theme? Or will she lag behind every time? Hrrmmm... Probably amping her survivability/personal ability to do work. Something along the lines of "your caster gets +2 arm," "your caster gains weaponmaster," or even "your caster gains overtake." Arkadius is never going to use that stuff but Helga would; the question becomes how much of those buffs she'd need and if it's not just better to buff her directly rather than via theme
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Post by Azahul on Aug 30, 2017 0:55:58 GMT
WM/H is a game structured around stacking strengths? What I mean is that it doesn't change the match-ups. Arkadius was always the Cygnar drop, now he's much better into it. He was also the drop into most battlegroup heavy builds, now he's that but with way more board presence and some free solos. He still doesn't play well into infantry swarms. The lists he was always going to beat, he now beats by a greater margin. I'm not unhappy with it, just a bit bored that my two lists will still be Arkadius/Carver, both in Will Work For Food, both running basically the same list plus an extra Warbeast/solos.
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Post by custardboy on Aug 30, 2017 1:01:32 GMT
WM/H is a game structured around stacking strengths? What I mean is that it doesn't change the match-ups. Arkadius was always the Cygnar drop, now he's much better into it. He was also the drop into most battlegroup heavy builds, now he's that but with way more board presence and some free solos. He still doesn't play well into infantry swarms. The lists he was always going to beat, he now beats by a greater margin. I'm not unhappy with it, just a bit bored that my two lists will still be Arkadius/Carver, both in Will Work For Food, both running basically the same list plus an extra Warbeast/solos. I think the overtake makes him pretty solid into swarms actually. If infantry builds become a thing again I may go back to my 4 road hog build. 4 road hogs and overtake with Arkadius' buffs and feat? That can handle a lot of dudes and decent armour.
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