Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Sept 13, 2017 0:24:46 GMT
I'm curious if the flat Merc allowance in themes is getting through. Khadr Steam & steel seems to indicate so unless Orrik is specifically allowed. Yeah, I wish the themes were more restrictive. I don't know why you'd have a theme then make it....well, not a theme. To me it seems PP didn't realize the ball of wax they'd opened up with all the free points, and now they're trying to walk it back without really walking it back. Now you've got models balanced against other models and themes balanced against themes, and the big balancing factor in the game is points but PP kinda threw that out the window by giving people all these free points. So now they're saying "Well, you get a theme but you also get mercs." Which eats into the free points and feels less thematic so why even have a theme? I totally get it if they're saying: "Okay, this theme is all about an army that fights Warjacks. So you get Sword Knights and Devil Dogs and Gorman and Hutchuck." Basically, a bunch of models that can fight against warjacks. And that's the theme of the army. Instead their themes are based on a type of model which, to me, is very simplistic (though not necessarily incorrect). And theme benefits are based on gameplay; not thematic, story driven elements. PP didn't look at it and say "What if Storm Knights get concealment while in your casters' control area? This big glowing ball of electrically driven a-holes marching across the battlefield, the voltaic surge making them more difficult to see" or "What if Houseguard units get the Tough ability?" or "What if marshalled Mercenary jacks can be allocated to?" Instead the benefits are "free points" and sometimes a very powerful secondary ability ("MY ARMY OF GRIFFONS GETS SHIELD GUARD!") and sometimes a pretty inconsequential secondary ability ("My solos get 3" reposition...yay?") So this really creates big problems. The word "theme" to me means "thematic". But the themes are really "competitive" list design choices. The more "Narrative-type" players are not interested in themes and loathe them. Some really good points in here, kudos Snarly. I did want to touch on something tangential to this though... There are competitive players who hate them too. They create artificial cycles of buying you wouldn't otherwise engage in which is annoying even if you have the disposable income, at levels you wouldn't engage in otherwise, and more and more on a strictly temporary basis. See also Wold War, see also Fist of Halaak. It also creates another "thing" you have to memorize, keep track of, etc., in an ever widening and expansive game. Sure its a mini game, so edition turn = potential new buying cycles. However themes really apply the gas pedal to this, and by engaging in competitive power themes, you're basically signing up that you're an edition away (or who knows ? A dynamic update? Maybe a CID cycle?) of your theme list no longer operating in the same way you're used to it operating. While i never bought into the "invalidated my purchases!" lament, i do agree with the notion of intentionally enforced obsolescence. Sure you can play Wold War and Fist as you knew them in MK2. I can also aim to make a decent list instead. Those themes can still be emulated, but they are now inferior to new themes, or just flat out not building in theme at all but in more optimized ways. This is all fine and dandy except, and i can't even fault PP here because they've been 100% honest that spam is by design and not going to go away. When it encourages wildly skewed buying habits like 8 Griffons or Umpteen Mad Dogs (i forget what the cap was), then whoopsie, the theme changes or a model in the theme changes, guess it wasn't quite as balanced as we thought, and the consumer who bought into the narrative of "Working as intended (right up until it isn't anymore)" is now deflated. This happens enough times (and it varies for some) , the consumer eventually goes "Yeah, no more." and either employs cautious buying habits (turning to the second hand market as a first tier resource of procurement) or even stricter measures ("Firetruck it, i'm not buying into [spam] themes anymore, or perhaps most drastically "Firetruck this game" - everyone's threshold is different on this). To the consumers that have reached some portion of their own personal thresholds ; if the game is now designed and balanced around themes, where's that leave the people that feel once (or twice... or three times...) burnt and now twice shy ? In a Firetrucking conundrum because this is the new normal for the game and its probably the single most fluid thing in the entire game (ie i'm reasonably confidant there will always be an ironclad or a Kodiak in the game; i am not reasonably confidant taht there will always be a Fist of Halaak or Body and Soul theme in the game). Here's the thing: they aren't themes anymore. They are the mechanism around which the game is being balanced. That is not thematic. It is mechanical. It is not thematic when not playing a theme means you play down a significant amount of points - albeit sometimes for significant trade off, in some (growing) cases not so much (see irregulars). You are now no longer playing something that is thematic and full of flair ; you are playing something because you can make your list concept work mechanically and get free points for it. It's not thematic at that point, it's now about optimization. And those are very different things both in terms of aesthetic and mechanical operation. One is being sold in guise of the other. Case in point: shitty themes don't see play, good themes do. Why is that ? The good ones are optimized with significant benefit far outweighing the trade off. The shitty ones collect dust (who was afraid of Combined Arms in MK2 ? show of hands ? No one ? Was the reaction the same when they saw pre-nerf Wold War or Fist of Halaak across the table? This edition will be no different, except in MK3 the aim is to make in-theme the norm and not the exception). In my gaming microcosm, a rising number of competitives i know are getting theme fatigue (slowly, admittedly, some people love them and argue they add depth to the game, i disagree, but that's okay ; i think they are the mechanism by which this edition is being largely balanced and i think that's not a great move, but this boils down to opinion). However the sample is too small to attribute anything other than anecdote to it.
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Post by Sarcastastic on Sept 13, 2017 0:53:16 GMT
My biggest issue with theme lists is that it seems to be simplifying list building to a disappointing extent. Instead of seeing cool new interactions, and a whole stable to mix and match with, you now see the exact same Ghost Fleet list with 3 min units with full WA, Denny1, a Wraith Engine, and then token arc nodes. The lists are more samey than ever it seems. I hate that themes are an obligation and not a choice anymore.
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Post by bluebarren on Sept 13, 2017 2:05:19 GMT
My biggest issue with theme lists is that it seems to be simplifying list building to a disappointing extent. Instead of seeing cool new interactions, and a whole stable to mix and match with, you now see the exact same Ghost Fleet list with 3 min units with full WA, Denny1, a Wraith Engine, and then token arc nodes. The lists are more samey than ever it seems. I hate that themes are an obligation and not a choice anymore. That's certainly true with certain themes, but there's tons of others that have a myriad of builds, heavy metal is great example (granted it's basically a free for all of warjacks), even with the same casters you see some pretty different builds and styles that they're played. And Gravediggers and northkin look pretty similar in the sense that there's SO many different units and solos that you can make a ton of different builds. I'm hoping that as each "book" comes out for each theme, they'll be expanded upon to such an extent that it isn't as simple as everyone playing the list you mentioned above. Hopefully it'll be like sub factions within the factions, so people can say something like, "I play trenchers" or "I play praetorians" etc.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Sept 13, 2017 8:21:00 GMT
I know have said this all before, but I think it is worth repeating, Theme Forces are vital to the longevity of this game. PP has to release new models, if they don't, they go bust. They have also stated that they don't want to invalidate people releases, so they cannot phase out old models like they do in deck building card games like Magic and Netrunner. What you are left with then is factions that become more and more bloated with models, and it becomes impossible to balance them all against each other, theme forces solve this by creating effective 'sub-factions' and reoving direct competition between models. So it does not matter that say Houseguard Halberdiers are strictly better than Mage Hunter Infiltrators, as long as Shadows is on a par with Defenders it does not matter.
Now I am not saying PP have nailed the execution of the theme forces, far from it, but I think it is worth remembering the over-arching reason behind themes when discussing them
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Post by jisidro on Sept 13, 2017 9:35:58 GMT
My biggest issue with theme lists is that it seems to be simplifying list building to a disappointing extent. Instead of seeing cool new interactions, and a whole stable to mix and match with, you now see the exact same Ghost Fleet list with 3 min units with full WA, Denny1, a Wraith Engine, and then token arc nodes. The lists are more samey than ever it seems. I hate that themes are an obligation and not a choice anymore.
Themes lack granularity... You have to reach certain threasholds and unit/warjacks/solo points sometimes don't help. Lack of FA on weapon attachments is also biting them on the ass. As usualy FA U turns out to be a bad idea.
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Post by Sarcastastic on Sept 13, 2017 13:22:21 GMT
My biggest issue with theme lists is that it seems to be simplifying list building to a disappointing extent. Instead of seeing cool new interactions, and a whole stable to mix and match with, you now see the exact same Ghost Fleet list with 3 min units with full WA, Denny1, a Wraith Engine, and then token arc nodes. The lists are more samey than ever it seems. I hate that themes are an obligation and not a choice anymore.
Themes lack granularity... You have to reach certain threasholds and unit/warjacks/solo points sometimes don't help. Lack of FA on weapon attachments is also biting them on the ass. As usualy FA U turns out to be a bad idea.
I've been a strong proponent of FA's being introduced for jacks. Know what would have solved the Mad Dog problem but left them with their cheap-n-effective niche? FA 3 or so. Know what would make the Bunny Ranch more manageable? FA 4. The list goes on. The rules on lots of the spammed models are fine on their own, but because you can spam them, they become a problem by numbers.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Sept 13, 2017 13:35:28 GMT
Themes lack granularity... You have to reach certain threasholds and unit/warjacks/solo points sometimes don't help. Lack of FA on weapon attachments is also biting them on the ass. As usualy FA U turns out to be a bad idea.
I've been a strong proponent of FA's being introduced for jacks. Know what would have solved the Mad Dog problem but left them with their cheap-n-effective niche? FA 3 or so. Know what would make the Bunny Ranch more manageable? FA 4. The list goes on. The rules on lots of the spammed models are fine on their own, but because you can spam them, they become a problem by numbers. As someone who owns 9 Chargers I cannot endorse an FA on Warjacks
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Post by jisidro on Sept 13, 2017 15:10:12 GMT
I've been a strong proponent of FA's being introduced for jacks. Know what would have solved the Mad Dog problem but left them with their cheap-n-effective niche? FA 3 or so. Know what would make the Bunny Ranch more manageable? FA 4. The list goes on. The rules on lots of the spammed models are fine on their own, but because you can spam them, they become a problem by numbers. As someone who owns 9 Chargers I cannot endorse an FA on Warjacks
Yet another reason why FA U is a bad idea...
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Post by snarlyyow on Sept 13, 2017 16:40:44 GMT
I don't care about spam, even jack spam. That's what is great about skews, they all have a counter. I do admit that, say, Vyros 2 having decel throws him over the curve on inexpensive, fast, melee jacks with decent armor. And it's one more thing PP has to take into account.
Yeah, that's my problem. I have no problem with mechanical elements that feel thematic. The problem is the themes are mostly good because of free points and, sometimes, a secondary ability. And I wonder why PP can't make thematic benefits that are not over the top. To me, Kingmakers is the ideal balance to this (Aside from not allowing Caine3 in theme. Because....weird.). The Kingmakers Army is thematic, if you read the fluff, and allowing some Cygnar elements is pretty good. Boomhowlers are speed5 guys with Ambush, it's good but not great. And you get a couple free solos. Giving Feign Death to the army is great when considering Magnus is a tactical genius, so it's fluffy. It also adds to the list of available models for Mercs which increases sales.
Compare that to Storm Division. If the point was to get Stormguard on the table, why give only Stormblades Advance move? The only real benefit of the army is free points and, situationally, immunity to electricity. It simply lacks any thematic elements. The only real reason to play it is to get free points. Stormknights receive almost zero benefit from the army at all. Would giving Stormguard AD be broken? Or small based warrior models concealment? For a Narrative player the theme doesn't give the player any "thematic" elements at all.
And that's the balancing act. With a theme how do you make it so it's situationally good, maybe even situationally great, but never always broken or always the optimal choice? Personally, I'd like to see stronger thematic elements, more restrictions (in some cases), and fewer free points.
My wish for Sons of the tempest was this during CID.
-Only Warjacks with non-typed ranged weapons, Lancers, and Ironclads. (So, super restrictive!) -1 specific Mercenary melee unit (Boomhowlers, Steelheads, Hammerdworfs) -Gun Mage units get some sort of benefit. My request was for Finisher.
But you saw what happened? Instead of leaning toward thematic elements PP just lowered the tier for free models to 15 points. To me, this says a lot about the company's mindset. Sure, they kept Pistoleer, which in many cases gives the Gun Mages the same threat range of whatever else might charge them, if you want them to do so. But I fail to see why that benefit is thematic, PP couldn't explain it and Pagani openly said he wasn't sold on it. And, despite numerous batreps and a bevy of recommendations PP ultimately decided Sons just needed a lower threshold for free points and to make the theme less restrictive. In other words, their solution was two fold: Make the theme less thematic and make it more mechanically competent (exactly what you said four posts ago).
It just seems so bizarre that this is their approach to the themes in general: Make them less and less thematic by opening up list design choices with mercenaries/minions. Whereas what the community is saying is "Make them more restrictive."
I believe themes can be both competitive and thematic. PP seems to think themes should be competitive and mechanical. And their solution is super simple: Give players free points until they take the theme. That strikes me as simplistic and moronic.
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Post by snarlyyow on Sept 13, 2017 16:54:00 GMT
In my gaming microcosm, a rising number of competitives i know are getting theme fatigue... One more thing on this. I'm a Narrative player, I don't make any bones about it. But I also like to win. Typically, I design one list in my pair personally and netlist the second. This gives me a good balance of "not losing every game" with "being able to play a list I enjoy." But the themes have really hampered the latter. I don't really design my own lists anymore because they all look the same and it's not fun to do so. At the start of MARKiii I saw Karchev everywhere and I designed this list called "Maddox Sucks" which had Devil Dogs in it. And that list was great. A lot of other players started playing it, or started playing Devil Dogs. It was fun, it worked, it solved a problem in the meta. But PP took away my ability to play "Maddox Sucks" competitively. Devil Dogs + Freebooter + Murdoch is a 31 point module, add in the loss of free points (likely 14 in Storm Division) and that module costs 45 points (literally two units of Storm Lances and a Stormblade Captain). Sure, I can still technically play it, and it might even be okay, but the competitive side of me loathes list options being taken from me. I'm not the only one, I literally had one very competitive player (WTC, Champion of this and that) say to me "I'm done with theme machine" and walk away from the game. Just like that.
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Post by Sarcastastic on Sept 13, 2017 18:04:38 GMT
I agree that Kingmaker is the golden standard all other themes should be measured against. It offers a completely new and interesting way to field your models by allowing Trenchers and other cool new toys, while still having a central flavour to it. It being the first theme they released gave me some hope. Now, the troll player side of me can't make any of the lists that I enjoyed in Mk2 and that got me into this hobby, because the theme lists punish me for doing so, basically.
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Post by chillychinaman on Sept 13, 2017 18:24:26 GMT
I agree that Kingmaker is the golden standard all other themes should be measured against. It offers a completely new and interesting way to field your models by allowing Trenchers and other cool new toys, while still having a central flavour to it. It being the first theme they released gave me some hope. Now, the troll player side of me can't make any of the lists that I enjoyed in Mk2 and that got me into this hobby, because the theme lists punish me for doing so, basically. I think Legion's Children of the Dragon, is a good example among the current themes. It limits us to Nephilim beasts, but allows for our Weapon Masters to be taken. The only change I would make would be to replace Unyielding with non-warlock warriors gaining SacPawn[Nephilim]. That way, we'd actually be able to deliver our units. Also, I think it'd make for fun imagery, half-dragon elves fighting besides and protecting their smaller, elfier brethren.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Sept 14, 2017 19:23:38 GMT
Well, the big and simple problem is that most lists are founded on unfinished selections. The reason why they encourage spam is that theoretically when a theme gets its selection of focused releases, it's not going to be spammy and have a wide selection of builds that are going to be made with it.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Sept 15, 2017 3:24:44 GMT
Well, the big and simple problem is that most lists are founded on unfinished selections. The reason why they encourage spam is that theoretically when a theme gets its selection of focused releases, it's not going to be spammy and have a wide selection of builds that are going to be made with it. You're not wrong. But given their pace, you're also 10 years from that being the rule instead of the exception. I know right now they're running around seemingly with their heads on fire and seeming not to get anything done. But honestly that's probably normal. They don't have the will as a company to push through something and ignore all side issues. That's not always a bad thing, but sometimes yes. Yes it is. I'm personally not bothered by themes being mechanical instead of thematic. It just plain old doesn't bother me. Then again I play Skorne, so there's no chance I have theme fatigue.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Sept 15, 2017 3:29:54 GMT
I'm personally not bothered by themes being mechanical instead of thematic. It just plain old doesn't bother me. Then again I play Skorne, so there's no chance I have theme fatigue. My only worry was the Merc thing. Like what did they expect to happen? Themes become ubiquitous and Merc sales drop. So they have to hammer them back in. What did they think would happen? That person would mostly play in themes but buy mercs anyway? This is the instability that worries me the most because of more than a minor or even a major model imbalance, it indicates something not thought through logically. Themes are a really good idea if the idea is to allow for a new type of play. Even an organization of models in a sense. But what did they wish to achieve?
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