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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Aug 27, 2017 3:34:22 GMT
Longer Battle report coming.
My list was:
pHaley 27* -Defender 16 -Charger 9 -Thorn 13 ATGM 11 ATGM 11 Tempest Blazers 18 Black Thirteenth 10 GMCA 5 GMCA 5 Arcane Tempest Rifleman 0 Arcane Tempest Rifleman 0 Lt. Falk 0 Strangeways 4
Idea of the list is, clearly, to get as many shots out of the infantry as possible.
I played into Kallus (Legion).
The long and short of the fight was: We deployed There was a house in the center of the field, Zuriel ran behind it. I feared that he would fly over the house and make a mess of my army's center. I feated, shot at him with every gun available, but a Def 13 heavy with cover, dodge, and then engagement bonus is a thing. He lives at 6 boxes. Zuriel overruns past the house, walks up to Haley. Game over.
This game made me seriously miss CRA. I could have had a couple of Rat 13, Pow 16s (or 18, thank you, Falk). The theme lacks accuracy fixes that Gravediggers and Storm Division have in abundance. I never liked CRA on them, but they need some way to get an accurate shot in. Maybe swapping Crit. Brutal for boosted attack rolls?
Falk performed well enough. His spray was one of the few weapons that didn't care about cover and engagement. During Haley's feat, he hit Zuriel with Rune Marked (did some damage), killed some dudes with Hail Fire, and then run-and-gunned away to safety. His only real deficiency I can see is Reciprocate. He doesn't have the range for it to matter. I'd love to see it swapped for Stealth, or prowl and pathfinder.
I would like to see Jacks with Ranged weapons count towards free points, the point requirement changed to 25, and the selection of jacks to be changed to any non-lightning immune, non-character warjacks. Then Centurions and Lancers are allowed. They can act as the front line, while the Gun Mages shove stuff around and kill infantry. Not to mention, this sort of theme would be excellent for casters like Sloan and Caine(1 and 3) who want an army like that, but can't get it.
The Gunmage CA didn't even make it into my army because he costs over twice what a normal gun mage costs, and offers two abilities that the unit doesn't even want. If I had to pick one gun mage model to go into CID, it would be him. He needs a mini-feat that offers the GMs something other units don't have. I'd like a mini-feat where they get True Sight or Hunter. Any kind of accuracy fix from him would help the unit immensely.
I didn't try out the Merc options in this attempt, but might try and pSiege list with Hammer Dwarves, Rhupert, and Gun Mages.
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Post by Aegis on Aug 29, 2017 3:19:17 GMT
I totally agree.
Counting Jacks for free solos would fix a lot of problems, and if lightning immune ones are excluded it would also be fluffy.
ATGM and B13 need a dev talk or something, as they are, they are not really worth it.
Finally, I think adding Rangers to the theme would be fitting (CRS and Arcane Tempest are tied, B13 are part of both groups), and add a RAT fixer.
The problem is that PP just made the first update, and pretty much ignored every suggestion and has gone his own way improving two things (inclusion of melee jacks and better upkeep support) that noone really asked for, leaving all the problems pointed out by everyone unchanged.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Aug 29, 2017 3:25:18 GMT
No, I asked for the upkeep change. It is a much better ability than starting with upkeeps because starting with upkeeps doesn't *do* anything.
I don't think this stops the list being bad, but its an obvious change to make.
And including melee jacks helps give thr list more staying power and able to rely less on expensive jacks to do all your work
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Post by Aegis on Aug 29, 2017 3:57:05 GMT
No, I asked for the upkeep change. It is a much better ability than starting with upkeeps because starting with upkeeps doesn't *do* anything. I don't think this stops the list being bad, but its an obvious change to make. And including melee jacks helps give thr list more staying power and able to rely less on expensive jacks to do all your work Ok, so someone asked for it. That said, main problems are still there.
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Post by bluebarren on Aug 29, 2017 6:10:45 GMT
I think both changes were definitely steps in the right direction, free upkeeps can be kinda huge with the right casters. being able to take centurions, ironclads and hammersmiths can help a lot in a theme that struggles a lot to break armor in the first place, also lancers can be nice to have from time to time.
That being said i agree that atgm and b13 need some kinda look, because they just don't cut it as they are right now.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 29, 2017 8:29:32 GMT
I think some people are approaching this theme from the wrong angle slightly, there seems to be a bit of an obsession with making Gun Mages able to crack armour, PP most likely do not envisage this theme to be the premier armour cracking theme in Cygnar, that is the role of Storm Division and Heavy Metal, SotT is meant to be based around control and more of an anti-combined arms list, yes it will most likely get stomped by a Baldur Double Woldwrath list, but into a more balanced list of units, solos and jacks I think it will fair very well. We have a second list for a reason.
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Post by Aegis on Aug 29, 2017 8:42:51 GMT
I think some people are approaching this theme from the wrong angle slightly, there seems to be a bit of an obsession with making Gun Mages able to crack armour, PP most likely do not envisage this theme to be the premier armour cracking theme in Cygnar, that is the role of Storm Division and Heavy Metal, SotT is meant to be based around control and more of an anti-combined arms list, yes it will most likely get stomped by a Baldur Double Woldwrath list, but into a more balanced list of units, solos and jacks I think it will fair very well. We have a second list for a reason. I think that with "armor cracking" people aren't thinking about "extreme armor cracking" like Baldur, Stryker1 or similars. Any list with more than 2 jacks or that brings some multiwounds unit will be a problem for a list of only POW 10 shots.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 29, 2017 8:50:52 GMT
I think some people are approaching this theme from the wrong angle slightly, there seems to be a bit of an obsession with making Gun Mages able to crack armour, PP most likely do not envisage this theme to be the premier armour cracking theme in Cygnar, that is the role of Storm Division and Heavy Metal, SotT is meant to be based around control and more of an anti-combined arms list, yes it will most likely get stomped by a Baldur Double Woldwrath list, but into a more balanced list of units, solos and jacks I think it will fair very well. We have a second list for a reason. I think that with "armor cracking" people aren't thinking about "extreme armor cracking" like Baldur, Stryker1 or similars. Any list with more than 2 jacks or that brings some multiwounds unit will be a problem for a list of only POW 10 shots. Its not only pow 10 shots though in reality, Falk can give a pretty much army wide +2 to damage rolls, and as it is a spray it is possible to tag multiple models, Marksman have deadly shot, there is plenty of access to additional dice and boosted damage, you can take Defenders and Hunters, you can take Aiyana and Holt, you can take Ragman, shooting into melee is not an issue for SotT as everything is so accurate, you have thunderbolts all over the place to gain breathing space.
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Post by Aegis on Aug 29, 2017 8:58:36 GMT
In my opinion not enough. AT Riflemans and 2-3 hunters aren't going to kill more than 1-2 heavies, and you can't take more since to be in par with others lists you need 60 points of gun mages. Any Colossal, even without buffs, will be a nightmare to kill. Falk is nice, but he will not be everywhere, and after he commit he will likely die. Ayana & Holt and other mercs are expensive, and again do not count for free points, so taking them without being behind on solos will be difficult.
Also, I don't see much what the theme should offer. If I wanted an anti-infantry list, Storm Division or Trenchers would probably do better. Just having tons of magic guns isn't enough imo.
Sure, you can probably fetch a decent casual list to play with an opponent that throws a similar casual list at you, but I don't think the list would perform well in tournaments, it has too many holes.
Finally, and funnily enough looking at MK2 Gun Mages role, any list with anti-shooting techs like stealth units or cloudwalls will wreck SoT, since the only model with True Sight is the GMCA that isn't nearly enough in those cases.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 29, 2017 9:14:17 GMT
In my opinion not enough. AT Riflemans and 2-3 hunters aren't going to kill more than 1-2 heavies, and you can't take more since to be in par with others lists you need 60 points of gun mages. Any Colossal, even without buffs, will be a nightmare to kill. Falk is nice, but he will not be everywhere, and after he commit he will likely die. Ayana & Holt and other mercs are expensive, and again do not count for free points, so taking them without being behind on solos will be difficult. Also, I don't see much what the theme should offer. If I wanted an anti-infantry list, Storm Division or Trenchers would probably do better. Just having tons of magic guns isn't enough imo. Sure, you can probably fetch a decent casual list to play with an opponent that throws a similar casual list at you, but I don't think the list would perform well in tournaments, it has too many holes. Finally, and funnily enough looking at MK2 Gun Mages role, any list with anti-shooting techs like stealth units or cloudwalls will wreck SoT, since the only model with True Sight is the GMCA that isn't nearly enough in those cases. The list is not without its weaknesses, arm buffed colossals, mass stealth and cloud walls are a problem, however against a list with 3-4 heavies, some infantry and solos, it will do just fine, and SR17 seems to be pushing people towards those more varied builds.
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Post by Aegis on Aug 29, 2017 9:26:03 GMT
In my opinion not enough. AT Riflemans and 2-3 hunters aren't going to kill more than 1-2 heavies, and you can't take more since to be in par with others lists you need 60 points of gun mages. Any Colossal, even without buffs, will be a nightmare to kill. Falk is nice, but he will not be everywhere, and after he commit he will likely die. Ayana & Holt and other mercs are expensive, and again do not count for free points, so taking them without being behind on solos will be difficult. Also, I don't see much what the theme should offer. If I wanted an anti-infantry list, Storm Division or Trenchers would probably do better. Just having tons of magic guns isn't enough imo. Sure, you can probably fetch a decent casual list to play with an opponent that throws a similar casual list at you, but I don't think the list would perform well in tournaments, it has too many holes. Finally, and funnily enough looking at MK2 Gun Mages role, any list with anti-shooting techs like stealth units or cloudwalls will wreck SoT, since the only model with True Sight is the GMCA that isn't nearly enough in those cases. The list is not without its weaknesses, arm buffed colossals, mass stealth and cloud walls are a problem, however against a list with 3-4 heavies, some infantry and solos, it will do just fine, and SR17 seems to be pushing people towards those more varied builds. I'm not really convinced, but we will see... Another problem is that the list, as it is, isn't suited for most casters. What would you play into it? Siege 1 suffers a lot without a Squire, any caster that wants a decently sized battlegroup is excluded since jack don't count for free points, no lightening sinergy means no Nemo3, and any caster that focus on melee hasn't any game there... What remains? Haley1 and Caine1? Not exactly our best casters to begin with, so nothing that could help a mediocre theme to shine, and still a very limited list for a theme...
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 29, 2017 10:02:51 GMT
Aegis Caine 1 is who I am looking at the most, Snipe is great for ranged lists, Blur is great for Tempest Blazers, Deadeye to make Crits more reliable, the free upkeeps really helps him out, and he actually has a pretty reasonable assassination threat, with 3 Shadowfires in the list and potential Flares he can get up to Rat 10, with his feat shot, 2 initials and buying two more, he gets 5 x rat 10 pow 12 shots, 4 of which have boosted damage
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Aug 29, 2017 12:24:18 GMT
In my opinion not enough. AT Riflemans and 2-3 hunters aren't going to kill more than 1-2 heavies, and you can't take more since to be in par with others lists you need 60 points of gun mages. Any Colossal, even without buffs, will be a nightmare to kill. Falk is nice, but he will not be everywhere, and after he commit he will likely die. Ayana & Holt and other mercs are expensive, and again do not count for free points, so taking them without being behind on solos will be difficult. Also, I don't see much what the theme should offer. If I wanted an anti-infantry list, Storm Division or Trenchers would probably do better. Just having tons of magic guns isn't enough imo. Sure, you can probably fetch a decent casual list to play with an opponent that throws a similar casual list at you, but I don't think the list would perform well in tournaments, it has too many holes. Finally, and funnily enough looking at MK2 Gun Mages role, any list with anti-shooting techs like stealth units or cloudwalls will wreck SoT, since the only model with True Sight is the GMCA that isn't nearly enough in those cases. The list is not without its weaknesses, arm buffed colossals, mass stealth and cloud walls are a problem, however against a list with 3-4 heavies, some infantry and solos, it will do just fine, and SR17 seems to be pushing people towards those more varied builds. So literally any shooting defense is a problem? That seems bad for a gun army.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 29, 2017 12:49:30 GMT
The list is not without its weaknesses, arm buffed colossals, mass stealth and cloud walls are a problem, however against a list with 3-4 heavies, some infantry and solos, it will do just fine, and SR17 seems to be pushing people towards those more varied builds. So literally any shooting defense is a problem? That seems bad for a gun army. So you want a gun army that can ignore all defences against gun armies?
maybe it is intentional that gun lines struggle into anti-gunline tech of one sort or another, if they did not struggle then gun-lines would just beat everything
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Aug 29, 2017 13:54:50 GMT
So literally any shooting defense is a problem? That seems bad for a gun army. So you want a gun army that can ignore all defences against gun armies?
maybe it is intentional that gun lines struggle into anti-gunline tech of one sort or another, if they did not struggle then gun-lines would just beat everything
Patently false. Lets compare this to Gravediggers. Your basic Gun Mage in Sons will be Rat 7 Pow 10 range 10" with either +4" range, Thunderbolt or Crit Brutal, magical, pistoleer and Def 14 arm 11 Your basic Trencher in Grave will be Rat 7 pow 11 range 10" with assault and CRA and Def 13 Arm 13 with Tough, Rise, Dig In, Cloud Wall and Mat 7 Pow 11 charges. The Trencher is 10 points for 6, Gun mages are 11 points for 6. A gunline which ignores tech but remains at a low power is bad. It wouldn't matter if Gun Mages had rfp, Eyeless sight, true sight and hunter. they still can't hurt an enemy armoured piece. I don't want a gunline, but I am under no allusions that the current Sons of the Tempest list is fine because if your opponent brings stealth Infantry, you probably lose. Unpushable Models? You probably lose. Fast melee? You probably lose. Clouds? Lose. Generally lists in Cygnar don't double down on guns in case those things appear and they try to have a good melee section. Gravediggers honestly can't do ithat.
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