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Post by macdaddy on Sept 15, 2017 12:06:44 GMT
Dammit, I think you're right there too. I really want to love my shrimps -und_ed Me too buddy I loved them in the baldur1 and Mohsar theme in MK2. Used them all the time :,(
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Post by jisidro on Sept 15, 2017 12:29:48 GMT
Dammit, I think you're right there too. I really want to love my shrimps -und_ed #Stoneheart
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Post by streetpizza on Sept 15, 2017 14:04:07 GMT
I don't know. You guys say the shrimp are that bad but they end at pow 16 on a concentrated fire round. Tack them on to a curse of shadows caster and that's a pow 18. Not sure what else you can ask for from a 10pt unit. The wyrds are really good but you can bring both and the shrimps offer volume of fire and the possibility of zephyr to get back behind a forest or other terrain for an effective range of 13" on those pow 12s. The unit brings flexibility where as the wyrds are just straight up power. I would play the crap out of this list and CID is just going to make it better: conflictchamber.com/#c8201b_-0p4w4P4P4H4Hg4g4c95e5e5d5di7Circle Army - 74 / 75 points [Theme] The Bones of Orboros (Mohsar 1) Mohsar the Desertwalker [+27] - Woldwarden [16] - Woldwarden [16] - Woldwyrd [9] - Woldwyrd [9] Blackclad Stoneshaper [0(3)] Blackclad Stoneshaper [0(3)] Gallows Grove [2] Sentry Stone & Mannikins [5] Sentry Stone & Mannikins [5] Stoneward & Woldstalkers [10] Stoneward & Woldstalkers [10] Celestial Fulcrum [19] We should all lobby really hard to get them included in secret masters to. The leader is a blackclad so it's not unreasonable to think the blackclads would bring their little friends along to help them out. Still doesn't save the theme but more options are nice.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Sept 15, 2017 14:29:05 GMT
I don't know. You guys say the shrimp are that bad but they end at pow 16 on a concentrated fire round. Tack them on to a curse of shadows caster and that's a pow 18. Not sure what else you can ask for from a 10pt unit. The wyrds are really good but you can bring both and the shrimps offer volume of fire and the possibility of zephyr to get back behind a forest or other terrain for an effective range of 13" on those pow 12s. I can ask for at least one of: - survivability - utility -armor cracking (one POW 15, 1 POW 16 is not armor crackinh) - the ability to hit high defense
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Post by jisidro on Sept 15, 2017 14:51:03 GMT
Say you are hitting on a: - 4+ (DEF 10), the odds of getting to base POW 16 are 71% and then you have a 92% of hitting with it. - 5+ (DEF 11), the odds of getting to base POW 16 are 48% and then you have a 83% of hitting with it. - 6+ (DEF 12), the odds of getting to base POW 16 are 27% and then you have a 72% of hitting with it. These are basic values... Concentrated power is not a good ability. CRA would probably be better unless it's low arm target with a lot of life... a KD caster?
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Post by macdaddy on Sept 15, 2017 14:55:27 GMT
I don't know. You guys say the shrimp are that bad but they end at pow 16 on a concentrated fire round. Tack them on to a curse of shadows caster and that's a pow 18. Not sure what else you can ask for from a 10pt unit. The wyrds are really good but you can bring both and the shrimps offer volume of fire and the possibility of zephyr to get back behind a forest or other terrain for an effective range of 13" on those pow 12s. The unit brings flexibility where as the wyrds are just straight up power. I would play the crap out of this list and CID is just going to make it better: conflictchamber.com/#c8201b_-0p4w4P4P4H4Hg4g4c95e5e5d5di7Circle Army - 74 / 75 points [Theme] The Bones of Orboros (Mohsar 1) Mohsar the Desertwalker [+27] - Woldwarden [16] - Woldwarden [16] - Woldwyrd [9] - Woldwyrd [9] Blackclad Stoneshaper [0(3)] Blackclad Stoneshaper [0(3)] Gallows Grove [2] Sentry Stone & Mannikins [5] Sentry Stone & Mannikins [5] Stoneward & Woldstalkers [10] Stoneward & Woldstalkers [10] Celestial Fulcrum [19] We should all lobby really hard to get them included in secret masters to. The leader is a blackclad so it's not unreasonable to think the blackclads would bring their little friends along to help them out. Still doesn't save the theme but more options are nice. The casters that want to run them (wurmy and Mohar) want living models and they compete with reeves who can do 2 Pow 19's at rat 16 for the same cost with the ua. (Thats pow 21 with moh) Reeves also have G2G as a minifeat which increases survivability on the approach. Its not the the stalkers are inherently bad, it is that they compete with far superior options and need a niche. particularly I would prefer concentrated power to just give a flat +2 to damage for the unit. so you would have a choice between using zephyr to move and aim for accuracy or concentrated power for raw DPS into heavies. The current concentrated power is very lackluster on a 5 man rat 6 unit. 5 Pow 14's for 10 points that can't be boosted seems reasonable to me. In that list You are better off with more heavies as you currently don't have enough fury output to fuel Moh and the fulcrum. also when you don't have sands of fate targets you really need 2 gallows groves with him. jisidro CRA on a 5 man unit is not good
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Post by jisidro on Sept 15, 2017 15:23:16 GMT
macdaddy It a RAT 11, POW 17 shot... sounds better than concentrated power...
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Post by streetpizza on Sept 15, 2017 15:48:08 GMT
I don't think you guys are looking at them in their intended role. They are not "heavy armor cracking" or single high pow shot providers. They are low through med/high infantry hunters relying on volume of fire and slippery mobility to do their job or chip damage to finish heavier targets. They're also good for providing those shots with magic ranged weapons.
They beat out reeves for hunting enemy infantry by a country mile thanks to not relying on CRA and providing a much higher volume of fire. That and reeves aren't available in the same theme force so it starts to become a non issue. Wyrds definitely provide some of the same role and that is actually a problem for them.
Some example targets of choice for stalkers:
- Cryx Bane knights - Cryx Blackbanes - Cryx bane warriors - skinwalkers - Ogryn - Light warjacks of all varieties
If you want to get more accurate with them Moh provides mirrage and there is zephyr for a 5" move with aiming. If RAT 8 isn't high enough for you then I don't know what to tell you. The zephyr move often allows you that last bit of positioning to get those RAT8 shots in a lot of situations. It especially allows Rat 8 vs jamming units. If you think you can hit reasonably well then move and zephyr provides one of the longest threat range shots we have all but guaranteeing they shoot first.
So to answer oncoming - survivability (check. Provided by mobility, terrain usage and long threat range.) - utility (check: wide range of targets can be hunted by selecting how you use zephyr on con fire. Oh and magic weapons) - armor cracking (one POW 15, 1 POW 16 is not armor crackinh) (Nope: not their job) - the ability to hit high defense (zephyr for aiming bonus where you need it)
I'm not saying that they're the right choice all the time or that they're perfect (9 points for the unit would probably be right and their design space in circle is squeezed pretty tight right now) but they're definitely not the red headed step child they're made out to be here.
They do have problems dealing with: - stealth - armor spam - higher threat range shooting (cygnar and sometimes ret)
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Post by streetpizza on Sept 15, 2017 15:49:04 GMT
macdaddy It a RAT 11, POW 17 shot... sounds better than concentrated power... except that you also gave up whatever the other 4 shots were targeting. Remember con pow does not have to all target the same thing.
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Post by macdaddy on Sept 15, 2017 16:01:04 GMT
macdaddy It a RAT 11, POW 17 shot... sounds better than concentrated power... But it is still a worse version of what reeves do. streetpizza We are starting to derail the thread here but the issue is not that they do not do a thing...Its that other things do that better. Wyrds, The fulcrum, Reeves, all preform a similar task better. They need to be pushed into a niche and "killing things with medium to low arm and defense" is not a particularly good niche.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Sept 15, 2017 16:01:48 GMT
Reeves are way better than 2 units of woldstalkers into infantry. They have a solid defensive mechanism, can CRA into combat, and if they just go for 2-man CRAs they spit out 10 RAT 7 shots (2 of them RAT 8 actually) as opposed to all the RAT 6 shots from the woldstalkers.
Reeves of course have the added benefit of bringing a much stronger game to hitting heavies.
I want to have a place for my woldstalkers, which is why I was suggesting them in bones, but if I'm out of bones it's a no-brainer to take Reeves over woldstalkers.
-und_ed
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