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Post by benjamini on Aug 22, 2017 15:32:16 GMT
I've finally started messing around with forge seers and I figure it's Time to return yet again to the age old question, Behemoth or two Destroyers.
So far I've been leaning towards destroyers, because more bodies and to be able to commit one to melee while maintaining my shooting if I so desire or split up my marshal abilities if I need to (ie one gets +2 accuracy, the other aims and gets +2 damage based on targets). Unfortunately that sweet sweet powerful attack is singing it's siren song!
What do you guys think, which ones comes out ahead, and why?
Thanks!
Edit: I may have miscommunicated what I was looking for, the comparison here is between two forge seers, one behemoth / two forge seers, two destroyers. (Would likely only do that in Jaws of the Wolf if that is a factor)
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Post by khador0932 on Aug 22, 2017 15:36:01 GMT
I think putting 2 on them is incredibly greedy, so I would never do that. I think it depends a lot on the rest of your list and your Warcaster. For example with Irusk2 you can put Behemoth on Irusk, then Fire For Effect on the marshalled Destroyer, and have the Forge Seer use Empower on the Behemoth so that it gets 2 Focus for free, while the Destroyer also runs for "free" on FFE.
Otherwise I would probably only put a Destroyer on the Forge Seer, unless you had 2 spare Forge Seers for Behemoth every turn (in say, JotW?) to reliably give him 2 focus. Even then that model has an enormous target on his head. Even then it's almost as many points as 2 Destroyers tied to one 10/16 model. Not a huge fan of the idea.
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Post by benjamini on Aug 22, 2017 15:46:01 GMT
I think putting 2 on them is incredibly greedy, so I would never do that. I think it depends a lot on the rest of your list and your Warcaster. For example with Irusk2 you can put Behemoth on Irusk, then Fire For Effect on the marshalled Destroyer, and have the Forge Seer use Empower on the Behemoth so that it gets 2 Focus for free, while the Destroyer also runs for "free" on FFE. Otherwise I would probably only put a Destroyer on the Forge Seer, unless you had 2 spare Forge Seers for Behemoth every turn (in say, JotW?) to reliably give him 2 focus. Even then that model has an enormous target on his head. Even then it's almost as many points as 2 Destroyers tied to one 10/16 model. Not a huge fan of the idea. I may have miscommunicated - I was intending to compare two Forge Seers, two destroyers, to two Forge Seers, one Behemoth
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Post by khador0932 on Aug 22, 2017 15:55:54 GMT
Oh I can't read. I like 2 forge seers & 2 destroyers more I think in most situations. Depends on the list though.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Aug 22, 2017 16:03:18 GMT
I go with Destroyers on Seers. All caster that I take Behemoth with want him in their battlegroup.
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on Aug 23, 2017 6:32:20 GMT
Behemot is more focus efficient. You need 2 focus to get 2 fully boosted shoots. You can't get 2 fully focused shoots out of marshalled destroyers. Meaning you will not hit or damage as much reliably with destroyers. Destroyers are marginally better in a battlegroup since they earn one free focus from power up, so you need to spend only one focus more instead of 2 in order to achieve a behemoth effect.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Aug 23, 2017 7:24:24 GMT
Well, isn't better to give the Behemoth to your warcaster instead? Else just give it to Malakov1....
For marshaling Destroyer seems much better. It only needs one focus point per a turn on shooting, while Behemoth needs two. If you keep the idea to have one Behemoth and two Forge Seers, it is better to give Behemoth to your warcaster and only cast Empower once and fully boost two shots with Power Up, until it have the charge range to the enemy.
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zeffid
Junior Strategist
Posts: 163
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Post by zeffid on Aug 23, 2017 9:57:03 GMT
Blessed and Magic is superb utility in many matches. Don't discount that. +2 to hit/dmg is also great in a lot of cases. I would say if bigB goes on seer or caster is decided according to target matchups. E.g. with buffing factions (Cygnar, Menoth) - I would consider him on GLFS.
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Post by borderprince on Aug 23, 2017 10:04:58 GMT
Personal preference is 2 Destroyers. Behemoth is going to be more focus efficient, in terms of number of boosts from the Empower focus.
But: (1) It makes the marshalling Forgeseer a really tempting target, and there are plenty of lists which can reach out and get to him (Ghost Fleet, for example);
(2) More boxes from the Destroyers. I find this important, as it means that with a few jacks in the caster's battlegroup, I'm starting to get to the level where opponents need to use their ARM cracking list. That gives a benefit in list selection, as you can make a reasonably informed judgment about what is coming and choose your list accordingly;
(3) Greater ability to spread out. In SR2017, it's nice to be able to send a jack and solo package towards a zone, even if that zone isn't the one I expect to see most the fighting. I'm happy doing that with a Destroyer + Forgeseer, much less happy sending Behemoth further away from the main action - his Bombards will still get work done, but you've paid for (and want) his considerable melee presence too;
(4) Behemoth's focus efficiency only matters in some cases. I tend to use Bombard shots as high-ish POW direct fire weapons, with the AoE as a nice benefit, only occasionally actually trying to maximise the AoE consequences of the shot.
In that context, if you get the aiming bonus with a jack, even a Khador jack doesn't need to boost to hit low-DEF targets like other jacks. And if you're firing at something like a jack, you really only want to boost damage.
If you're trying to snipe a solo or key model with arcing fire, you need to boost to hit, but often don't need to boost damage;
(5) I tend to be less bothered about losing battlegroup buffs on Destroyers (as melee is decidedly secondary for them), but am more bothered about losing that on Behemoth.
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Post by welshhoppo on Aug 23, 2017 11:14:51 GMT
I would also go with the destroyer.
Behemoth is too at risk of shakeable effects that the forge seer cannot get ride of. Because you need to shake in the maintenance phase and you can't empower behemoth until his activation.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Aug 23, 2017 11:24:14 GMT
It's worth mentioning that a Behemoth with Crush and two focus (and hopefully Boundless Charge) will do a ton of work, doing up to 10 boxes more damage than he would with three focus but no Crush. The difference is especially significant if he's going in on a target with an ARM buffing spell that Blessed allows him to ignore.
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Post by cageyj0nny on Aug 23, 2017 11:51:19 GMT
I would also go with the destroyer. Behemoth is too at risk of shakeable effects that the forge seer cannot get ride of. Because you need to shake in the maintenance phase and you can't empower behemoth until his activation. So this happened to me last night. Big B with 2 FS and he gets shot by kealyssa and made stationary. Its super sad as he cant shake it, so she kept doing it every turn. Lost me the game as ive got 33 points sat there doing nothing.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Aug 23, 2017 12:00:58 GMT
I would also go with the destroyer. Behemoth is too at risk of shakeable effects that the forge seer cannot get ride of. Because you need to shake in the maintenance phase and you can't empower behemoth until his activation. So this happened to me last night. Big B with 2 FS and he gets shot by kealyssa and made stationary. Its super sad as he cant shake it, so she kept doing it every turn. Lost me the game as ive got 33 points sat there doing nothing. Kill the Forgeseer marshaling him, have your caster take him into your battlegroup. Do that first turn of the game if you know you can't stop him from getting shot. I mean, in your next game, now that you have the benefit of hindsight. Also, if you know Bigsby is going to be stationary forever, why not have the Forgeseers at least walk forward and start chucking spells around or empowering your battlegroup? Even if you want to keep one of them near Behemoth in case she rolls double-1s or something, you can at least have the other go do something useful. No reason for ALL of those 33 points to sit the game out.
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Post by benjamini on Aug 23, 2017 13:07:46 GMT
Monday Night I played a game using two destroyer on two forge seers, one of the destroyers kept getting knocked down. So I can kind of see what you mean in terms of not being able to deal with shakeable effects.
The experiment seemed to go pretty well though, it was a really bad matchup into Kara Sloan... but eventually my devastator was able to slam a light into her and some kayazy eliminators shanked her a bunch. Was definitely not playing a list that felt optimal to me, but I enjoyed the experience. If anyone is curious, here is what I have been messing around with.
Khador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Jaws of the Wolf
(Butcher 2) Kommander Orsus Zoktavir [+28] - Devastator [14] - Marauder [10] - Ruin [17] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] - Destroyer [14] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] - Destroyer [14] Yuri the Axe [6] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Kossite Woodsmen (min) [7] Widowmaker Scouts [8]
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Post by cageyj0nny on Aug 23, 2017 13:12:15 GMT
So this happened to me last night. Big B with 2 FS and he gets shot by kealyssa and made stationary. Its super sad as he cant shake it, so she kept doing it every turn. Lost me the game as ive got 33 points sat there doing nothing. Kill the Forgeseer marshaling him, have your caster take him into your battlegroup. Do that first turn of the game if you know you can't stop him from getting shot. I mean, in your next game, now that you have the benefit of hindsight. Also, if you know Bigsby is going to be stationary forever, why not have the Forgeseers at least walk forward and start chucking spells around or empowering your battlegroup? Even if you want to keep one of them near Behemoth in case she rolls double-1s or something, you can at least have the other go do something useful. No reason for ALL of those 33 points to sit the game out. Your right, I thought about all those options after the game. I think I just got slightly to salty about it and wasnt thinking straight.
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