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Post by ForEver_Blight on Aug 23, 2017 19:55:34 GMT
The problem with our denial Gane is that it doesn't pay well into cygnar or ret. There's a couple of factions whose competitive list just ignore our denial. So we need to have an alt list to deal with them that didn't rely on our denial. And then we get into the problem that most of our base stats are sort of mediocre. That's not a fault of the faction. That is the solely the fault of the socially constructed meta. Again, just because it doesn't work 100% of the time doesn't mean it "never" works. (everyone is having to build a cygnar drop atm) I still cannot see where the "bad" stats are in Protectorate or Cygnar (in rationalizing arcane-shield-on-a-stick)
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Aug 23, 2017 20:46:50 GMT
Protectorate is, if I remember correctly, in the top 3 as far as averaged total stats for small, medium, large. However, as far as dice averages and the need for a 3rd di to either hit or break armor, we are one of the lowest. Basically, we have a lot of pointless stats -_-; The difference between 19 and 20 arm is BIG. the difference between 9 def and 11 def is horribly small. I used to complain about it quite a bit, but people refuse to believe math so I pushed it off the table. The focus usage against protectorate (dealing damage and hitting models) is about an average of 3, sometimes even up to 5 per alpha in comparison to Cygnar or Khador. These 3 focus can be used for spells, additional attacks, or just stacking on some additional damage; they can also be left on the caster for some extra armor in case of retaliation.
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Post by W0lfBane on Aug 24, 2017 0:30:39 GMT
The problem with our denial Gane is that it doesn't pay well into cygnar or ret. There's a couple of factions whose competitive list just ignore our denial. So we need to have an alt list to deal with them that didn't rely on our denial. And then we get into the problem that most of our base stats are sort of mediocre. That's not a fault of the faction. That is the solely the fault of the socially constructed meta. Again, just because it doesn't work 100% of the time doesn't mean it "never" works. (everyone is having to build a cygnar drop atm) I still cannot see where the "bad" stats are in Protectorate or Cygnar (in rationalizing arcane-shield-on-a-stick) For jacks Cygnar and ret beat us at def. Khador at arm and mat. Cygnar at mat and rat. Im not saying we have bad stats but they are actively average to mediocre. Like you can usually point out an equilvalent unit in another faction with just a little better stats.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Aug 24, 2017 2:48:15 GMT
That's not a fault of the faction. That is the solely the fault of the socially constructed meta. Again, just because it doesn't work 100% of the time doesn't mean it "never" works. (everyone is having to build a cygnar drop atm) I still cannot see where the "bad" stats are in Protectorate or Cygnar (in rationalizing arcane-shield-on-a-stick) For jacks Cygnar and ret beat us at def. Khador at arm and mat. Cygnar at mat and rat. Im not saying we have bad stats but they are actively average to mediocre. Like you can usually point out an equilvalent unit in another faction with just a little better stats. Sure, but put it another way: We beat Cygnr, Ret, Mercs and Cryx at arm. We beat Khador at def and spd (kinda. Ashen Veil or light jacks for def, about 50% of the jacks have higher spd). We tie Mercs and Ret at mat and rat. Average is fine. We are above some, and below others.
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Post by Zanragul on Aug 24, 2017 7:32:38 GMT
For me the problem with PoM at the moment is that our strong screening units from MK2 all got nerfed. Zealots had a big impact for our strong jack gunlines to jam the enemy or deny charges to our big guys. Same goes for our errants. It was a big part in my list building to go for at least one screening unit that can buy me one round to get in a good position. As one of the slowest factions in the game it is much needed in the fast SR17 to have sth that can buy us some time. The only good piece to deny the enemy from rushing the szenario is the monk in my opinion, but he is not in a theme list so far... I think this was one of our strongest denial.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Aug 27, 2017 4:00:13 GMT
*yawns and perks an eyebrow* you did read my last post, correct?
Our screening units are pretty on par, especially when you consider that a single unit of Temple flameguard + UA + Pyrrhus can stop a full on assault in its tracks for 2 turns with ease
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Post by greytemplar on Aug 27, 2017 5:10:40 GMT
*yawns and perks an eyebrow* you did read my last post, correct? Our screening units are pretty on par, especially when you consider that a single unit of Temple flameguard + UA + Pyrrhus can stop a full on assault in its tracks for 2 turns with ease Not my experience. So much stuff can easily delete a unit of TFG, even under mini-feat.
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Post by Swampmist on Aug 27, 2017 5:19:23 GMT
TFG, assuming a buff, are really good into exactly other melee dudes, possibly some cavalry. I've had them tie up stormblades for an entire game, but they also failed to kill literally anything.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Aug 27, 2017 23:54:57 GMT
yeah, they are a lot more resiliant than they seem. with 13 def and shield wall up they can handle most assaults. That said, they are only a sacrificial wall. When I say that they can tie up an assault for 2 rounds I never mentioned how many would be left after each turn x.x; Pyrrhus cannot really receive any damage until the flameguards that are b2b with him are removed, making him a real big pain in the toosh. After they kill those b2b with him, however, they'll be able to START annihilating the bulk of the flameguards. If you time Iron Zeal right, they are one of the best "for your points" screen combos in the game.
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d3z
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by d3z on Aug 28, 2017 3:11:56 GMT
yeah, they are a lot more resiliant than they seem. with 13 def and shield wall up they can handle most assaults. That said, they are only a sacrificial wall. When I say that they can tie up an assault for 2 rounds I never mentioned how many would be left after each turn x.x; Pyrrhus cannot really receive any damage until the flameguards that are b2b with him are removed, making him a real big pain in the toosh. After they kill those b2b with him, however, they'll be able to START annihilating the bulk of the flameguards. If you time Iron Zeal right, they are one of the best "for your points" screen combos in the game. I can't help but look at your own words in this thread: Of course Pyrrhus can receive damage before the b2b grunts die, people are commonly bringing some magical weapons to apply where needed. At the end of the day, I couldn't fathom taking 13 bodies for 20 points when I could have 10 bodies for 11, and spend those 9 points elsewhere. 13/17 with set defence is an ok statline for a cheap screen.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Aug 28, 2017 19:01:56 GMT
that was when we were discussing denial, not screening. 10 bodies for 11 pts die in 1 turn with 1 unit of magic gunners, some alpha blocker that is. Up its armor to 21 and force a combined attack on phyrrus since he also has boxes ^-^ suddenly we have half the line left at the end of turn for jamming those same ranged units. an army of 12k can fall to an army of 2k through the use of proper tactics and strategy. In essence, it's not how many bodies you bring but how you use them
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d3z
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by d3z on Aug 29, 2017 3:20:18 GMT
Well, agree and disagree with certain parts on the topic of TFG against shooting.
Exaggeration. Not many units (include attachments if you want) can reliably one-round a unit of 13/17 TFG. Farrow brigands and Idrians probably would if they had prey on the TFG (which would be a waste of prey). A more basic unit with CRA and POW10 guns will kill half the unit or less.
You've said yourself that 1 point of ARM at this level is a big difference. If you've been thinking that the mini-feat takes them from 17 to 21 this whole time (it's actually 20), that might explain why you are more excited than the rest of us over the mini-feat.
Estimating that adding mini-feat + pyrrhus would reduce mini-feat turn casualties by half is probably a good guess, but that's often not halving 10 to 5. It's halving 8 to 4, or 6 to 3.
You're still getting much more than half of the work of the 20 point package with the 11 point package, particularly if you are giving the TFG any sort of buff.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Aug 29, 2017 3:55:48 GMT
Right now, all of the most used full-unit ranged infantry deal around 16-18 damage on average, some of them even able to fire twice if they aim instead of move into position. Luckily, however, the majority of this infantry only has 6 RAT, making their average roll "to it" to be around 12. When you put this together with the TFG's 13 def, it pretty much forces the enemy to go melee for the boosted dice and negation of concealment-type bonuses, yet charges and slams both get a -2 to their damage on TFG. However, I will admit...
using Pyrrhus as a non-free solo is not something I'd do unless my list already had plenty of punching power. His 15 def is a very nice added bonus, especially with the +2 armor in melee bonus. Though by personal choice, I'd prefer to spend the points on Nicia, as far as utility goes, she takes the cake.
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Post by streetpizza on Aug 29, 2017 19:57:13 GMT
Right now, all of the most used full-unit ranged infantry deal around 16-18 damage on average, some of them even able to fire twice if they aim instead of move into position. Luckily, however, the majority of this infantry only has 6 RAT, making their average roll "to it" to be around 12. When you put this together with the TFG's 13 def, it pretty much forces the enemy to go melee for the boosted dice and negation of concealment-type bonuses, yet charges and slams both get a -2 to their damage on TFG. However, I will admit... using Pyrrhus as a non-free solo is not something I'd do unless my list already had plenty of punching power. His 15 def is a very nice added bonus, especially with the +2 armor in melee bonus. Though by personal choice, I'd prefer to spend the points on Nicia, as far as utility goes, she takes the cake. Small point of order. Set defense is +2 to defense not armor. Otherwise ... carry on
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