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Post by WantonRanger on Aug 22, 2017 20:31:52 GMT
The problem with the denial game is it can come very close to being like those blue decks in magic the gathering that just counter ever spell/move you make...
The denial game is intrinsically unfun if it is too powerful as it means opponents can't use their armies as intended.
As such this is the very reason it's such a rubbish defining aspect of Menoth, because it will never be a strong enough trait to upset other peoples armies (too much) and therefore it is just a very mediocre "soft touch" most of the time.
With Ellish Garrity coming in... i.e. Upkeep removal on a stick, it makes the few denial aspects we have even weaker in uniqueness and makes the PP overcosting of these units even worse. Pretty sure they value the very meh denial aspect of Menoth far too highly... as well as a variety of throwbacks like the choir etc... who are pretty much just a +2 damage buffboat now (and effectively a points tax on our jacks).
Think you are right in saying that Skorne is synergy done correctly... I don't think our layers work particularly better than most other non-synergy factions.
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Post by WantonRanger on Aug 22, 2017 20:33:21 GMT
The problem with the denial game is it can come very close to being like those blue decks in magic the gathering that just counter ever spell/move you make... The denial game is intrinsically unfun if it is too powerful as it means opponents can't use their armies as intended. As such this is the very reason it's such a rubbish defining aspect of Menoth, because it will never be a strong enough trait to upset other peoples armies (too much) and therefore it is just a very mediocre "soft touch" most of the time. With Ellish Garrity coming in... i.e. Upkeep removal on a stick, it makes the few denial aspects we have even weaker in uniqueness and makes the PP overcosting of these units even worse. Pretty sure they value the very meh denial aspect of Menoth far too highly... as well as a variety of throwbacks like the choir etc... who are pretty much just a +2 damage buffboat now (and effectively a points tax on our jacks). Think you are right in saying that Skorne is synergy done correctly... I don't think our layers work particularly better than most other non-synergy factions. Sorry I mean it will never be made that strong as PP doesn't want to make our opponents pull their hair out... hence the mediocrity
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Aug 22, 2017 20:44:42 GMT
indeed, until our medium infantry gets buffed back up Skorne won't be bringing much weapon master. However, we do bring a lot of extra dice thanks to abilities that auto-boost, add dice then drop the lowest, and mak2 feat and xerxis1 feat x.x; have you seen the latest theme for skorne? we finally have a way to be "beastly" again.
Wanton,
blue decks in MTG can both auto-counter AND attack, thus why they are so frigg'n annoying. I used to play before apocalypse, then it just turned gay.
Our denial is suppose to block off our weaknesses like movement speed and terrain compatibility. However, even our denials can be negated and out-threated.
As for Skorne, our new theme is the only way we can actually use our support game. We finally have a way to get Kreas and Agonizers for cheep, even if we have to sacrifice ALL our infantry to do it. The difference is the effectiveness of the delivery. Skorne buffs its own units; Menoth denies the opponent's units. It's because of this that I believe the book and the choir should do a better job at denying attacks. If anything, it should be blessed weapons, not magical, that can penetrate our denials. To begin with, the increase of magical weapons was due to the increase of incorporeal units. Menoth shouldn't be suffering due to counteractions against other faction focal points.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Aug 22, 2017 21:01:49 GMT
Just getting into the faction. So take this as you will.
Covenant denies knockdown tactics. Choir denies spells and ranged (I know it's not both at once and they both aren't 100% guaranteed to not be circumvented) Lamentation "denies" spell casting in a sense Purification denies upkeeps Enliven soft "denies" damaging jacks. In the idea that if I hit it off the cuff, I have to deal with the fact it gets closer to my stuff Sevy 1 has a denial type feat As does Kroes 3 and Vindictus Testament "denies" jamming and free strikes as his army goes incorporeal Kreoss 2 feat in a way denies your defensive tech/stat (say Fyanna 2's feat) Durst really does everything possible outside of a hard nope (Mk2 Saeryn). The defensive stats he can field under feat are bonkers. Avatar has a kind of denial. Blessed weapons are available and again "deny" defensive stats Battle Driven is again a soft denial. (better to say forces a choice) Sac pawn is a way of denial
That's a lot... It's probably better to call it "control", but there is a lot of things that Protectorate can do to affect what the opponent can/can't do. You can take away some options straight up or force some serious decisions.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Aug 22, 2017 21:14:33 GMT
and what does all that do against combined magical shooting from outside threat range again?
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Post by WantonRanger on Aug 22, 2017 21:28:16 GMT
Just getting into the faction. So take this as you will. Covenant denies knockdown tactics. Choir denies spells and ranged (I know it's not both at once and they both aren't 100% guaranteed to not be circumvented) Lamentation "denies" spell casting in a sense Purification denies upkeeps Enliven soft "denies" damaging jacks. In the idea that if I hit it off the cuff, I have to deal with the fact it gets closer to my stuff Sevy 1 has a denial type feat As does Kroes 3 and Vindictus Testament "denies" jamming and free strikes as his army goes incorporeal Kreoss 2 feat in a way denies your defensive tech/stat (say Fyanna 2's feat) Durst really does everything possible outside of a hard nope (Mk2 Saeryn). The defensive stats he can field under feat are bonkers. Avatar has a kind of denial. Blessed weapons are available and again "deny" defensive stats Battle Driven is again a soft denial. (better to say forces a choice) Sac pawn is a way of denial That's a lot... It's probably better to call it "control", but there is a lot of things that Protectorate can do to affect what the opponent can/can't do. You can take away some options straight up or force some serious decisions. I feel that this list is a bit of a stretch as plenty of other factions have a variety of these methods of denial... but yes we have got shizzle
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Post by greytemplar on Aug 22, 2017 21:28:58 GMT
The problem with the denial game is it can come very close to being like those blue decks in magic the gathering that just counter ever spell/move you make... The denial game is intrinsically unfun if it is too powerful as it means opponents can't use their armies as intended. This isn't necessarily true, and it never really was true for Protectorate either at the height of our denial power. Thats because Protectorate denial was almost always defensive. It was always some variant of "You can't do X to my Y". It didn't usually interfere with the opponent doing stuff to his own dudes. It didn't prevent him from moving his troops here or there. Harbinger's old feat rarely won the game. It simply gave the Protectorate player the leg up on starting the scenario drive vs infantry heavy armies. And it's a feat, that level of power is expected. Jack and beast heavy lists didn't really care about it, and even infantry heavy lists could claw their way back through it. Haley2s nerfed feat is still far stronger than Harbinger's old feat, and she still made it through to mk3 unchanged.
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Post by WantonRanger on Aug 22, 2017 22:10:27 GMT
The problem with the denial game is it can come very close to being like those blue decks in magic the gathering that just counter ever spell/move you make... The denial game is intrinsically unfun if it is too powerful as it means opponents can't use their armies as intended. This isn't necessarily true, and it never really was true for Protectorate either at the height of our denial power. Thats because Protectorate denial was almost always defensive. It was always some variant of "You can't do X to my Y". It didn't usually interfere with the opponent doing stuff to his own dudes. It didn't prevent him from moving his troops here or there. Harbinger's old feat rarely won the game. It simply gave the Protectorate player the leg up on starting the scenario drive vs infantry heavy armies. And it's a feat, that level of power is expected. Jack and beast heavy lists didn't really care about it, and even infantry heavy lists could claw their way back through it. Haley2s nerfed feat is still far stronger than Harbinger's old feat, and she still made it through to mk3 unchanged. But this is exactly what I mean... Denial is on of our things and it has never been that strong ever. My point was that PP won't ever make it strong enough to be that effective as it would make us crappy to play against. I don't like that a highly limited design concept is an integral definer of our faction...and also not that great anyway
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Aug 22, 2017 23:50:56 GMT
eh, I actually chose Menoth because I liked Feora1 and the possibilities of Feora2 x.x; Guardians of the Temple has always been my favored theme because of this. I've tried making more "denial-esque" lists using people like Reznik, but where we get our denials from are too costly. Even when you stack on as much as possible, you still get murdered by magical based attacks.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Aug 23, 2017 12:55:11 GMT
and what does all that do against combined magical shooting from outside threat range again? [sarcasm] Well there you have it. Protectorate can't counter 110% of the game. Pack it up boys. Nothing more to see here. Unnecessary sarcasm aside. There has to be some weakness to everything. If "the denial game" was perfect, there would be no way to play into it and succeed. Thus it would boil down play Protectorate or gtfo. That's not a good state of the game.
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Post by WantonRanger on Aug 23, 2017 13:12:08 GMT
and what does all that do against combined magical shooting from outside threat range again? [sarcasm] Well there you have it. Protectorate can't counter 110% of the game. Pack it up boys. Nothing more to see here. Unnecessary sarcasm aside. There has to be some weakness to everything. If "the denial game" was perfect, there would be no way to play into it and succeed. Thus it would boil down play Protectorate or gtfo. That's not a good state of the game. Absolutely, but currently it does far too little and is nowhere near being overpowered... or even that effective...
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Post by Tekoda on Aug 23, 2017 14:21:23 GMT
Play harbinger and deny your opponent all his upkeeps in a 20 inches radius and deny his kill with martyrdom even his new feat can deny a zone against most solo and infantry. Deny spells against Her with a devout add a couple shield guards and you got a quite powerful combo of denying abilities and its pretty annoying To opponents.
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Post by greytemplar on Aug 23, 2017 16:47:58 GMT
Except Martyrdom has a pretty huge cost. She's pretty much limited to 6 or so when she is at full health. Sure, she stops you killing that one dude. At the cost that she herself, who is already incredibly squishy, is putting herself very very close to death. And then next turn she has to weigh healing herself vs focus for defense(and even when spending focus to mitigate, arm19 is easy to force damage through). Also she won't be casting many spells if she is healing herself.
Her new feat is mostly useless. 10" is far far too small to actually be effective. As you say, at best it's minorly annoying. Feats shouldn't be "minorly annoying".
They should have just given her a totally new feat instead of giving her a useless version of her old one.
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Post by W0lfBane on Aug 23, 2017 17:16:24 GMT
The problem with our denial Gane is that it doesn't pay well into cygnar or ret. There's a couple of factions whose competitive list just ignore our denial. So we need to have an alt list to deal with them that didn't rely on our denial. And then we get into the problem that most of our base stats are sort of mediocre.
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Post by Tekoda on Aug 23, 2017 17:32:32 GMT
With our easy access To shield guards she's a lot harder To assasinate than she was before. Against lists with a low number of quality guns you can easily camp one or two focus. In mark 2 you had To camp a lot more. She's still weak against a large number of guns but that didnt changed. Her feat is weak youre right, but martyrdom is almost a feat and its there each turn.
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