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Post by narvt86 on Aug 17, 2017 8:12:17 GMT
i often play again a rhulic player and i have alot of trouble again his madhammer list with all his long range support madhammer feat, battle engine, mortar with reposition, etc. i lose alot just to get closer, and play scenario doesnt work becaise i can let nothing just camping at the flag or a zone i try zerkova but even with her i had problem her cloud doesnt cover enought. Do you have suggestion or any tip ?
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Post by gobber on Aug 17, 2017 8:35:04 GMT
Zerkova's clouds can be supplemented by kodiaks/ternion to get more coverage; trampling before dropping cloud helps. Special note to any caster than can give kodiaks reposition 3 (karchev/malakov/hark), which lets them back out of their cloud. You might also look into the irusks in WGK. Blast immune winterguard, sac pawn, and team rocket outranging most of his stuff should help a lot. Vlad1 probably works as well; superspeedy jacks, wind wall, and the rockets/rifles having the range advantage.
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Post by narvt86 on Aug 17, 2017 9:22:54 GMT
i only own 1 squad of wg inf, and mostly play man-o-war, legos, or wgk with my unit of inf mortar and alot of jack. i try zerkova with legos and my kodiak the problem is with the sr2017 you are likely to split up your armie and the troop i have to send away meet their doom lol i doesnt try this list enought maybe but i also prefer more ggressif caster uch kozlo, strkhov 1 and 2 the gameplay of erkova tend to bother me
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Post by smoothcriminal on Aug 17, 2017 14:05:00 GMT
What's their list?
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Post by narvt86 on Aug 17, 2017 14:54:20 GMT
iam not 100% sure of his list but its something like that
Durgen Madhammer-Ghordson Avalancher -Wroughthammer Rockram -Grundback Blaster Hammerfall Siege Crawler Thor Steinhammer Ogrun Bokur (free) Horgenhold Artillery Corps (free) Horgenhold Artillery Corps (free) Herne & Jonne Tactical Arcanist Corps Horgenhold Forge Guard Horgenhold Forge Guard
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Post by borderprince on Aug 17, 2017 19:23:08 GMT
So, the issues are: (1) Lots of blast damage, which on one turn will be boosted; (2) High base POW shooting (15 for the BE, 14 for Madhammer and Mortars - but Mortars get Brutal Damage on direct hits); (3) Reasonable melee in the Forgeguard.
Weaknesses of the Madhammer list: (1) Only the BE has pathfinder (2) Melee ARM cracking with only one melee heavy. The Forgeguard aren't bad at it, but struggle against Khador jack armor unless they get the charge and/or are Primed (but Primed drops their ARM to a very manageable level) (3) Stealth mitigation - only one model a turn via the BE. Obviously that model can be the target for an AoE, but once the destealthed model is killed, no more targeting. Kayazy models might be useful if you protect them from blast damage (Iron Flesh or Solid Ground) (4) Madhammer only has one shot a turn (one reason he will almost certainly be better in the Irregulars theme) (5) Low DEF (they are dwarfs) - almost anything Khador has will hit without needing buffs. So Bear's Strength WGI can trade favourably with Forgeguard.
Based on that, and what you have mentioned having in your collection: Irusk2 - Solid Ground protects a large area against the blasts - Artifice of Deviation gives you an on demand effect to slow down melee threats (as does his feat - Forgeguard only charge 4", and that's before the rough terrain). - Energiser can speed up your battlegroup - If you want a bit of firepower of your own, a Fire For Effect Mortar is a very powerful direct fire piece and if any Forgeguard are Primed, drop a shell on them - POW8 boosted will easily take down their max ARM of 16 (only achieved by helpfully clumping them up) in that circumstance.
You need to use your favourable melee threat ranges to your advantage.
Legion of Steel might work, keeping infantry in Irusk's control range for Solid Ground. The aim here is target saturation - does the opposing list have enough anti-infantry firepower to take out all the warriors? For Madhammer that depends on blast damage, so doesn't work against Irusk2. Uhlans can run outside the Solid Ground bubble as blast damage isn't a major threat to them.
Alternatively, go for a non-theme list. Your WGI and/or Kayazy Assassins (if you have them stay closer) to Irusk2. A unit of MoW STs with Kovnik can afford to be outside the Solid Ground bubble and just keep moving forward (slowly) in shield wall.
In both cases the Uhlans/MoW are vulnerable to direct fire, but there's not much you can do about that.
For jacks, quantity is more important than quality. Shooting is less effective against high ARM than melee. Other than the Rockram, the best this list can do is boosted damage rolls on feat turn, but starting from a lower base POW than melee weapons. On feat turn, a Horgehold mortar will do 8 damage (average) on a Khador jack. Both of them will take off half the boxes. The BE could just about finish it off. But that's just one jack, from most of the shooting. If you have enough jacks, some will get through. Some mechanics sheltering in Solid Ground would also help, as they can keep the jacks repaired for as long as possible.
And make sure one jack is a Marauder...
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Post by sand20go on Aug 17, 2017 19:38:16 GMT
And apply widowmakers/snipers to the Forgeguard and profit.
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Post by tjhairball on Aug 17, 2017 21:41:09 GMT
And apply widowmakers/snipers to the Forgeguard and profit. That's one thing that hasn't changed in Mk III. What has changed is that now the Tactical Arcanist Corps is also vulnerable to that. Thinking about it, Widowmakers may be a pretty general answer to Rhulic infantry units. The only ones with multiple wounds now are Herne & Jonne (single 2-man character unit) and the Ogrun Assault Corps. At 12/16 with Tough, the OAC is not terrifically happy to see RAT 7-8 POW 10-12 Snipers, since Sniper models get to ignore Tough on their targets. Widowmakers are vulnerable to blast damage, though. It's probably worth being cautious using their full range and Swift Hunter from the Widowmaker Marksman to keep them safe.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Aug 17, 2017 22:43:17 GMT
Yeah, take caster that gives out blast immune either via Iron flesh or Solid ground, it counters Durgen's kit quite hard. Iron flesh + mows should be very hard for this list to shoot and they charge longer than forge guard.
Irusk2 + kayazi/widowmakers in jaws theme is unfair for this list to fight against.
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Post by narvt86 on Aug 18, 2017 14:10:03 GMT
ill try something next time,
Irusk2 -Behemoth -Destroyer -Destroyer -Destroyer -Destroyer Forge seer Forge seer Kayazy Eliminator Kayazy Eliminator Widowmaker Scout Widowmaker Marksman Min Battle mecanic
alot of range support no blast dgm and infantry killer and energizer, FFE sound good to me. i donesnt put jack on the forge seer because i want them to get energezer and magical and blessed arent useful again them and i dont think ill use battle lust n&way
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Post by leotherat on Aug 18, 2017 15:42:18 GMT
If you're just going to use the seers as loaders then drop 2 of the destroyers for a full shock trooper boat and max mechanics. 2x Destroyers =28+ min mechs 3=31: Max shocktroopers + UA 20 MoW Kovnik 5 + max mechs 5 =30. The MoW will give you more board presence and who doesn't like Arm 21 8 boxes no knockdown no push and tough all in one package.
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Post by borderprince on Aug 18, 2017 16:42:54 GMT
ill try something next time, Irusk2 -Behemoth -Destroyer -Destroyer -Destroyer -Destroyer Forge seer Forge seer Kayazy Eliminator Kayazy Eliminator Widowmaker Scout Widowmaker Marksman Min Battle mecanic alot of range support no blast dgm and infantry killer and energizer, FFE sound good to me. i donesnt put jack on the forge seer because i want them to get energezer and magical and blessed arent useful again them and i dont think ill use battle lust n&way That's...a lot of Destroyers. The general idea looks sound. Putting Destroyers on Irusk2 or the Forgeseers isn't an easy call. Energiser comes from Irusk, but: (1) FFE can be placed on a non-battlegroup model. On a battlegroup model it partly replicates the power-up focus, so is arguably more efficient on a non-battlegroup model; (2) You've ignored one of the big benefits of marshalling - the general jack marshal rules. On a Destroyer, if you can aim (not too hard with RNG 14) you can get the ranged attack up to POW16 (and add FFE, or Empower from the Seer, to boost it further). If you really want to, you could even hot swap FFE between two marshalled Destroyers every turn. Also worth nothing that it's also possible to get a marshalled Destroyer to P+S19 in melee, and anything which can make a jack as powerful as a Juggernaut bears serious consideration; (3) Marshalling a Destroyer gives a relatively autonomous module which can spread out from Irusk (something you mentioned as a problem earlier). Just cast FFE Turn 1 and then upkeep. I've marshalled Destroyers in JoW lists and liked it (using Zerkova1 - Irusk2 should be better). It's certainly not a simple decision. And if you get the chance to Battle Lust a unit of Eliminators and get them to charge Madhammer, take it - the odds of assassination are not terrible.
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Post by Cirga on Aug 18, 2017 17:03:31 GMT
I also agree that one of those destroyers should go on a forge seer. You throw FFE onto the marshaled destroyer so that the seers can put their power up focus elsewhere (like 1 to behemoth), and you then have a total of 3 fully boosted bombards, with the marshaled destroyer also receiving the drive benefits (+2 rat, or +2 damage when aiming). Here's an example of an Irusk2 Jaws list that I've been considering. Khador - Irusk2 JAWS Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Supreme Kommandant Irusk - WJ: +27 - Behemoth - PC: 25 (Battlegroup Points Used: 25) - Juggernaut - PC: 12 (Battlegroup Points Used: 2) - Kodiak - PC: 13 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0 Manhunter - PC: 4 Kayazy Assassins - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9 - Kayazy Assassin Underboss - PC: 4 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5 Widowmaker Scouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 8 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3 THEME: Jaws of the Wolf - If you want a bit of firepower of your own, a Fire For Effect Mortar is a very powerful direct fire piece and if any Forgeguard are Primed, drop a shell on them - POW8 boosted will easily take down their max ARM of 16 (only achieved by helpfully clumping them up) in that circumstance. The mortar has high explosive, so it would be boosted POW 10 blast damage with FFE.
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Post by leotherat on Aug 18, 2017 17:33:00 GMT
Khador - Irusk2 JAWS Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Supreme Kommandant Irusk - WJ: +27 - Behemoth - PC: 25 (Battlegroup Points Used: 25) - Juggernaut - PC: 12 (Battlegroup Points Used: 2) - Kodiak - PC: 13 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0 Manhunter - PC: 4 Kayazy Assassins - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9 - Kayazy Assassin Underboss - PC: 4 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5 Widowmaker Scouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 8 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3 Why not drop the Manhunter and Mechs for a full Assassins unit?
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Post by gobber on Aug 18, 2017 17:53:23 GMT
ill try something next time, Irusk2 -Behemoth -Destroyer -Destroyer -Destroyer -Destroyer Forge seer Forge seer Kayazy Eliminator Kayazy Eliminator Widowmaker Scout Widowmaker Marksman Min Battle mecanic alot of range support no blast dgm and infantry killer and energizer, FFE sound good to me. i donesnt put jack on the forge seer because i want them to get energezer and magical and blessed arent useful again them and i dont think ill use battle lust n&way Do you have the kayazy assassins? I feel like Irusk wants a little more infantry than that. Even if you never battle lust them, your opponent has to respect that threat and the def15/stealth/noKDtough/blast immune kayazy brick is a PITA to deal with.
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