faelin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 121
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Post by faelin on Aug 17, 2017 23:30:50 GMT
I think we need to have a talk with Rowdy about his priorities. It's been 2 hours.
Maybe a talk about his phone usage too.
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Post by Cryptix on Aug 17, 2017 23:35:02 GMT
I think we need to have a talk with Rowdy about his priorities. It's been 2 hours. Maybe a talk about his phone usage too. Don't ever talk on the phone with an African housewife.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Aug 18, 2017 0:12:19 GMT
I have more posts then anybody else on this forum by like at least 500 posts. I deserve a break period (To spend on more warmachine).
Il make a general for it.
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crow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 310
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Post by crow on Aug 18, 2017 12:05:27 GMT
When it comes to the new theme couple of points...
First of all it's for mercs, the most random assortment of dudes (thematically) you can think of, so to make theme lists for mercs that would "include every model" and to do so thematically would take a TON more releases. I think this was Privateer Press's way of trying to cover a ton of bases quickly, with probably the idea that they'll come back to the individual groups in time when they've actually had time to think, plan, and properly release what would need to be released for each "sub" group of the already "sub" faction.
Second the theme was given to mercs, who for the most part have to pay the "merc" tax on most of their things. Stat wise merc troops and models usually fall short on their "main" faction equivalents, or are just REALLY expensive, (see merc shooting vs cygnar shooting, Khador armor vs Merc Armor, etc...). Hence why Kingmakers is so good in mercs, cause we can use OTHER FACTIONS infantry. Now then also consider that many strategies that actually allow mercs to compete. Most the time it's caster and host of character solos that make the army actually good. This theme, while not very restrictive, does give the merc player the ability to use those solos that help his infantry and what not and thus play with the "big boys" as it were.
Thirdly although it allows for a nice amount of free points, everyone seems to be forgetting that you're probably only gonna benefit from two of the three benefits. I mean, if you want flank you gotta attach the jack to a jack marshal. Which probably means you'll end up having to 1. use the free points for Marshals, not super solos. 2. If you're using it for armor cracking you have now probably attached a minimum 9 or 11 points to an easy to snipe out jack marshal who if he goes down, basically means you get a nice 9 or 11 point paper weight for the rest of the game. And the other two benefits are nice, but not really game breaking.
Finally, Although it seems decent I think the other two themes still have merit. Repo on Artillery Core is AMAZING and getting them for free is even better. Also getting tactician Rhulic, and a rhulic only feat, from Ossrum is an AWESOME thing to have for an entire army. And as stated before, you can't really jack marshal any of the dwarf heavies, so the Rhulic theme allows for more heavy Rhulic jacks. Kingmaker has Trenchers which again because were mercs the second best unit in another faction makes it the best unit in mercs.
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Post by W0lfBane on Aug 18, 2017 14:43:09 GMT
When it comes to the new theme couple of points... First of all it's for mercs, the most random assortment of dudes (thematically) you can think of, so to make theme lists for mercs that would "include every model" and to do so thematically would take a TON more releases. I think this was Privateer Press's way of trying to cover a ton of bases quickly, with probably the idea that they'll come back to the individual groups in time when they've actually had time to think, plan, and properly release what would need to be released for each "sub" group of the already "sub" faction. Second the theme was given to mercs, who for the most part have to pay the "merc" tax on most of their things. Stat wise merc troops and models usually fall short on their "main" faction equivalents, or are just REALLY expensive, (see merc shooting vs cygnar shooting, Khador armor vs Merc Armor, etc...). Hence why Kingmakers is so good in mercs, cause we can use OTHER FACTIONS infantry. Now then also consider that many strategies that actually allow mercs to compete. Most the time it's caster and host of character solos that make the army actually good. This theme, while not very restrictive, does give the merc player the ability to use those solos that help his infantry and what not and thus play with the "big boys" as it were. Thirdly although it allows for a nice amount of free points, everyone seems to be forgetting that you're probably only gonna benefit from two of the three benefits. I mean, if you want flank you gotta attach the jack to a jack marshal. Which probably means you'll end up having to 1. use the free points for Marshals, not super solos. 2. If you're using it for armor cracking you have now probably attached a minimum 9 or 11 points to an easy to snipe out jack marshal who if he goes down, basically means you get a nice 9 or 11 point paper weight for the rest of the game. And the other two benefits are nice, but not really game breaking. Finally, Although it seems decent I think the other two themes still have merit. Repo on Artillery Core is AMAZING and getting them for free is even better. Also getting tactician Rhulic, and a rhulic only feat, from Ossrum is an AWESOME thing to have for an entire army. And as stated before, you can't really jack marshal any of the dwarf heavies, so the Rhulic theme allows for more heavy Rhulic jacks. Kingmaker has Trenchers which again because were mercs the second best unit in another faction makes it the best unit in mercs. I don't know how snipping a jack marshal makes the jack useless. It becomes autonomous. It basically doesn't benefit from the jack marshal drive and benefits. Heck it might even get to keep flank.
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crow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 310
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Post by crow on Aug 19, 2017 12:25:18 GMT
So with Merc jacks it's speed 6 (at most)... you know what out threats speed 6 with no charge? Everything... everything out threats speed 6. Also the jacks don't benefit from battle group spells or anything else from the caster. So then you're relying on merc infantry to get the job done... so yeah... doesn't take much to make the list pretty ineffective...
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Aug 19, 2017 12:31:11 GMT
Maybe whenever this goes into CID, it will convince PP that the problems with Jack Marshals is in the core rules.
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Post by gobber on Aug 19, 2017 20:04:26 GMT
So with Merc jacks it's speed 6 (at most)... you know what out threats speed 6 with no charge? Everything... everything out threats speed 6. Also the jacks don't benefit from battle group spells or anything else from the caster. So then you're relying on merc infantry to get the job done... so yeah... doesn't take much to make the list pretty ineffective... Autonomous privateer jacks are actually reasonably functional with Shae's coup de main for free charges; lanyssa and Mags1 both have ways to help as well. Freebooters in particular for Grab & Smash.
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crow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 310
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Post by crow on Aug 20, 2017 14:18:12 GMT
Im still not feeling great on the idea that if you can snipe a jack marshal, all you have to do is snipe Lanyssa too. Now Shae might not be bad in this theme, and may be one of the few casters that actually gets work out of it I guess, though Magnus helps one jack... max two. And even then you'd have to be hot swapping on a focus 6 caster. and Iron aggression doesn't have the longest spell range around so you might end up with Mags a little further up then is comfortable.
Overall the theme is alright, but not broken, and the fact that it's in Mercs and not the Main factions makes it a good but not AMAZING theme. It seems like it'll be easy to counter for many a list, and I still think it'll be good to pair it with either Hammer Strike, Kingmakers, or Operating Theatre.
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Post by gobber on Aug 20, 2017 20:09:50 GMT
And even then you'd have to be hot swapping on a focus 6 caster. and Iron aggression doesn't have the longest spell range around so you might end up with Mags a little further up then is comfortable. Eh, resourceful, cost2, and the arc node make this easier than you're suggesting. Not sure you're ever going to be marshaling more than two jacks either. All in all the JM weaknesses really push me towards freebooter. Autonomous 8" threat grab&smash that can't be averted by knocking the bugger down. That said I would love to see "shake" added to the jack marshal options so the others are more reliable.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Aug 20, 2017 20:16:14 GMT
Im still not feeling great on the idea that if you can snipe a jack marshal, all you have to do is snipe Lanyssa too. Now Shae might not be bad in this theme, and may be one of the few casters that actually gets work out of it I guess, though Magnus helps one jack... max two. And even then you'd have to be hot swapping on a focus 6 caster. and Iron aggression doesn't have the longest spell range around so you might end up with Mags a little further up then is comfortable. Overall the theme is alright, but not broken, and the fact that it's in Mercs and not the Main factions makes it a good but not AMAZING theme. It seems like it'll be easy to counter for many a list, and I still think it'll be good to pair it with either Hammer Strike, Kingmakers, or Operating Theatre. Jack Marshall is not the point of this theme, any more than giving warbeasts tracker is the point of the wolf-sworn theme, or providing lightning immunity is the 'point' of Storm Division. The point of the theme is near unrestricted access to Merc models, access to free points (literally the most permissive free points structure we've seen thus far,) and as a distant third, advance move on a few jacks. Jack marshal is a nice bonus, and a fun thing to build for if you're trying to do something different. It's not the point of the theme, nor is it going to be the main focus of most irregulars lists. Most lists are going to be 'merc list X, now with 20-25 points of free stuff.' One less-than-stellar bonus doesn't make this theme balanced, or thematic (especially if other factions aren't getting comparable themes.)
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crow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 310
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Post by crow on Aug 21, 2017 21:55:05 GMT
Eh, resourceful, cost2, and the arc node make this easier than you're suggesting. Not sure you're ever going to be marshaling more than two jacks either. All in all the JM weaknesses really push me towards freebooter. Autonomous 8" threat grab&smash that can't be averted by knocking the bugger down. That said I would love to see "shake" added to the jack marshal options so the others are more reliable. Hmm, I'll give ya Magnus then too. I own him but have never really played him... though isn't resourceful "battle group" oriented? Cause then the marshalled jacks wouldn't be effected. And I'm regaurds to "not using the jack marshal" part of the theme, I go back to where I said at most you'd get two benefits, but probably not all three. Without the jack marshal bonus the only benefits are "X" free points, and advance move... which many themes do... plus more. For instance hammer strike gets you "X" points, reposition on some sweet stuff, and the extra 2 inch deploy is pretty close to advance move except its for your hole army. Hence getting one extra solo then the average theme isn't really that busted imo. Thematically, you're right, this theme is not. It is a way to catch a TON of models though while they slowly introduce other themes that are thematic.
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Post by mikethefish on Aug 21, 2017 23:16:05 GMT
And I'm regaurds to "not using the jack marshal" part of the theme, I go back to where I said at most you'd get two benefits, but probably not all three. Without the jack marshal bonus the only benefits are "X" free points, and advance move... which many themes do... plus more. For instance hammer strike gets you "X" points, reposition on some sweet stuff, and the extra 2 inch deploy is pretty close to advance move except its for your hole army. Hence getting one extra solo then the average theme isn't really that busted imo. Thematically, you're right, this theme is not. It is a way to catch a TON of models though while they slowly introduce other themes that are thematic. Ah...yes and no. You are really looking into the theme in a superficial kind of way, IMO. Yes, the actual rule benefits are not anything special - but it's what you do with those benefits that make things awesome. Consider how limited most faction Themes are. Usually when they are selecting free models, they are pulling from a very limited pool. You might grab a free UA, or pick up Arlan Strangeways or something - and that's great, don't get me wrong! But consider what the Irregulars are buying with their free points. The latest list I personally came up with had Ragman, the Piper, Savio Acosta and Eiryss1 - all of which were totally free. Irregulars are not just bringing any free solos into the list. They are bringing the perfect selection of "power solos" that will totally compliment whatever caster or list is constructed. It's just a way better value than any other Theme-based "free stuff" benefit in the entire game. Not to be underestimated.
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