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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 16, 2017 15:28:31 GMT
Want to Try out the Freebooter, Lanyssa and Renegade combo, Renegade Knocks something down, hunters mark and the freebooter can go 13" from down-town, with crush, flank and trash he gets 3 x pow 16 double weaponmaster attacks, one with a boosted damage roll. and that's before you add in potential, Calamity, Harm, rust, Death Field.
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Post by Tre32 on Aug 16, 2017 15:42:35 GMT
I thought Lanyssa was unavailable in the theme?
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 16, 2017 15:46:24 GMT
I thought Lanyssa was unavailable in the theme? she is Mercenary Minion I think, I don't have my war-room on me so cannot double check though
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Post by gobber on Aug 16, 2017 15:53:14 GMT
I thought Lanyssa was unavailable in the theme? She's a "mercenary minion nyss character solo" and therefore should qualify despite being under the minion heading in warroom and whatnot.
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Post by Aegis on Aug 16, 2017 15:56:26 GMT
So when Mercs had 4-Star and the same ability to take a ton of models with less buffs, no one complained. But now Mercs gets more buffs to fix a incohesive faction that had major issues with a large pool of models unable to synergize with each other, everyone freaks out? Now that Mercs finally got a fluffy and flavorful generalist option that appeals to the taste of the faction, everyone else is whining to get the same treatment because they want to have new toys too. Remember when Cygnar had its thematic Sword Knight and Trencher army? Or Khador with its Doom Reaver and Iron Fang army? I don't. Because it makes no sense for them to receive a generalist theme for already cohesive factions that are covered by other themes. Like I said before, I believe that the point limitation should be raised to 30 to bring it in line with other themes. However, NO other faction besides Minions would make any sense to get this kind of generalist theme. You can say this was Privateer Press being lazy and now going through each individual model in Mercs to fix their issue, but now, I am playing all my shelved models thanks to this theme and not feeling like I already lost when it hit the table. Good job, PP. So the faction that, historically, was most restricted into playing only specific subsets of models (contracts) now is the one that get's the most generic and widely permissive theme, that allows all of everything to be played toghether AND get tons of bonuses on the top of it... You are telling me that it makes more sense to get bonuses to play Pirates and Dwarfs toghether, maybe with Eyriss and Alexia mixed inside, than to get bonuses to play two troops of the same military army (in your example, Sword Knights and Trenchers, who almost always fight toghether in fluff)? I can understand that for a merc is beautiful to get a powerfult theme that lets you play and mix-match pretty much what you want, but do not tell me that it makes sense to do that for mercs and not for others... It's the opposite. I don't like themes (and in particular, free points forcing them as the only competitive choice), but if themes has to be, it has to be for everyone, EXPECIALLY mercenaries that were basically forced into themes (contracts) due to fluff reasons since MK2. Doing the opposite is the usual lazy work, that ignores fluff, brings potential balance problems, and shouldn't come out from a professional team of developers. Really, was Doug Seacat fired or what? How is possible that every few weeks PP comes out with something that not only contraddicts what devs have said until few days before, but also totally ignores previous warmachine and IK fluff so badly?
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Post by Aegis on Aug 16, 2017 16:01:30 GMT
I like this theme, it's not fluffy and is only cool rulewise... BUT - It's a theme that puts mercs back as a faction (with it's own idiosyncrasies) - It enables merc list construction - Gives what appear to be non-broken benefits (I'm sure some combo will appear to have a shot go into the opposing deploy...) What I don't like is the endless boat of free points, this one maxes out at Eyriss(7) + Acosta (6) + Alten (6) + Hutchuk (6) for 25pts... The 5pts options are probably better Orin/Kell and I'm sure Sylys will be taken as well... For a "modest" 7+5+5+4 benefit of 21pts... How many points will the last theme to be released give out? 30? 40? 50? Well, your endless boat of free points comes at a cost. Assuming a 75 point list, to be able to get the 4 free solos you have to spend your 75 points on units and warjacks since points spent on solos don't count towards free solos. If your army was only going to have 4 solos in it, then this works out fine. Considering the variety of powerful solos the Mercenaries have some may find the lack of other solos a bit constraining. In your 25 point example above none of your choices are jack marshals, so you are pretty much giving up on the Flank bonus for the marshaled warjacks. If you were to pay the points for the jack marshals in addition to getting your free solos your free points just dropped to whatever the difference in costs are *and* the jack marshal solos you paid points for don't contribute towards the free solos. (Remember that points spent only on warjacks and units contribute towards the free solos.) As soon as you start buying solos for your army your number of free solos starts dropping. The only flexibility you get towards getting a 5th solo after your 4 free solos is if your free warjack points on your warcaster is above 25 points. If you spend exactly 100 points on units and warjacks then whatever warjack points your warcaster has above 25 will tell you how much you can spend on a 5th solo. For the Mercenaries this means about half of their warcasters could afford a 5th inexpensive solo, after the 4 free ones, if they spent all of their other points on warjacks and units. Oh, and you want to make sure that your army is a good construction, also. If your REALLY need those extra solos, you can simply skip the 4th one, getting just 75 points of "basically whatever you want" and still getting around 15-18 free points that is more than what most restrictive themes bring to other factions, and all the extra jack bonuses. Some people complain about Heavy Metal since it's too easy to get a lot of free solos, this is a worse version of it, even more easy to qualify and that lets you pick pretty much whatever you want (while at least the list of solos and units allowed by Heavy Metal is very restrictive). If instead you manage to get 100 points of "pretty much whatever you want except solos", you get 4 free solos, that counting how much some of them costs, brings you more than 20 points of free models (more than any other theme around), by basically taking whatever you want without restrictions, and giving good bonuses on jacks on the top of it. Seems legit.
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Post by chillychinaman on Aug 16, 2017 16:17:38 GMT
Themes forces are reminding me of the 7E 40k Detachments. Sure everyone had the generic CAD, but the real power was in the "decurion style" detachments and it really ended up dividing the factions between the haves and the have nots by the power level of their signature detachments.
One of the changes that I liked about the early 8E is the removal of all these unique detachments, analogous to WMH's theme forces, and replacment by generic detachments that let any army fluff out basic and common build styles. There were ones for basic infantry, armoured companies, scouts & outriders. If WMH did something similar with I think it'd be a step in a better direction.
For example, a generic infantry or jack theme can give rules/free models for including X points of their appropriate choices. I understand that WMH lacks the diversity of model types compared to 40k, but it could further be broken down to include, shooting units, magical cabals, gun jack/beast batteries, flyer wings, etc.
P.S. It seems that 8E 40k is moving back to unique detachments so easy come, easy go I guess?
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Post by gobber on Aug 16, 2017 16:35:02 GMT
battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Index+Four+StarThe only additions I can find to four star are: Horgenhold/OAC (hammerfall worked for fourstar, but not horgenhold) Lynus&Edrea, Anny,Taryn,Savio,Lanyssa Newstuff:thorns, idrians And a few subtractions: Ogrun Bokur, River Raiders Gallant/Roci (for most), That is not a total collapse of the world's fluff.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Aug 16, 2017 16:36:33 GMT
The Bunny Ranch lists will be crazy.
Ossrum -Sylys 103 points of Dillers, Bunnies, and Forgeguard Eiryss Rhupert Ragman
19 free points
Compared to this, Heavy Metal is restrictive.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Aug 16, 2017 16:37:24 GMT
I thought Mercenaries didn't work for Mercenaries? [/pointless_snarky_remark]
Nah, I'm happy for Mercs.
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Post by BoxyBrownMD on Aug 16, 2017 16:38:09 GMT
So when Mercs had 4-Star and the same ability to take a ton of models with less buffs, no one complained. But now Mercs gets more buffs to fix a incohesive faction that had major issues with a large pool of models unable to synergize with each other, everyone freaks out? Now that Mercs finally got a fluffy and flavorful generalist option that appeals to the taste of the faction, everyone else is whining to get the same treatment because they want to have new toys too. Remember when Cygnar had its thematic Sword Knight and Trencher army? Or Khador with its Doom Reaver and Iron Fang army? I don't. Because it makes no sense for them to receive a generalist theme for already cohesive factions that are covered by other themes. Like I said before, I believe that the point limitation should be raised to 30 to bring it in line with other themes. However, NO other faction besides Minions would make any sense to get this kind of generalist theme. You can say this was Privateer Press being lazy and now going through each individual model in Mercs to fix their issue, but now, I am playing all my shelved models thanks to this theme and not feeling like I already lost when it hit the table. Good job, PP. So the faction that, historically, was most restricted into playing only specific subsets of models (contracts) now is the one that get's the most generic and widely permissive theme, that allows all of everything to be played toghether AND get tons of bonuses on the top of it... You are telling me that it makes more sense to get bonuses to play Pirates and Dwarfs toghether, maybe with Eyriss and Alexia mixed inside, than to get bonuses to play two troops of the same army (your example, Sword Knights and Trenchers, who almost always fight toghether in fluff)? I can understand that for a merc is beautiful to get a powerfult theme that lets you play and mix-match pretty much what you want, but do not tell me that it makes sense to do that for mercs and not for others... It's the opposite. I don't like themes (and in particular, free points forcing them as the only competitive choice), but if themes has to be, it has to be for everyone, EXPECIALLY mercenaries that were basically forced into themes (contracts) since MK2. Doing the opposite is the usual lazy work, that ignores fluff, brings potential balance problems, and shouldn't come out from a professional team of developers. In the lore, respectively, there are separate branches for Trenchers and an order for the Sword Knights. It is not thematic when they fight together because, although they are inherently different in fighting styles and doctrines, they still serve to forward the goals of a singular faction and have little interaction outside of some side story battle in stories. Now, with the Trencher theme coming out soon, can expand upon the doctrines and fighting of the Trencher companies and add character through numerous Trencher character solos. But, as an example, take the 4th army of the Trencher Division. They were built outside of small skirmishes in the lore as a band of degenerates that eventually fell with Magnus in the Second Cygnaran Civil War. Either following because they thought Magnus was their leader outside of the control of Cygnar or due to other personal reasons. They were given some sort of character, unlike other tencher divisions, and are represented thematically through the Kingsmaker theme. Mercenaries, which consists of individuals with wildly varying ideals and goals, fight for varying reasons that CAN be up to the interpretation of the player. For example, take the Forgegaurd. Still loyal to Rhul, they fight for coin and training alone. As opposed to Madhammer, who's sole purpose is to concoct means of destruction. There is a reason why this theme is called "The Irregulars", because the focus is hazy and purpose unclear. Lore aside, Comparing MK2 mercenaries and MK3 Mercenaries is difficult, considering the state of the game ever since MK1. Mercenaries sole purpose in the game was to be a fill in for factions lacking specific abilities and functions that would offer variety. As the game advanced into MK2 and onward, model pools expanded and more models were given to primary factions to use. This left Mercenaries with more than a handful of support bloated solos that were over costed, and unlike other factions, had little to no synergy with each other. Transitioning into MK3 and until now, Privateer Press seems like they are recognizing this issue of being a disjointed force and consolidating our options into that of a primary faction like Cygnar. As I stated before, I feel like the theme is a little strong with the 25 point limit, and should be pushed up to 30. As for balance problems, most theme lists can net +15 points with ease (Heavy Metal pops up immediately to me). In terms of ignoring fluff, this theme literally offers the chance of the player to be invested enough in their army to create their own lore of their army that coincides with the existing lore of each character. If that isn't fluffy enough for you, I'm not sure what is.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Aug 16, 2017 16:42:15 GMT
I see a lot of people complaining about this theme. Understandable, on the surface it looks like an unusually permissive theme force. Myself, I'm in "Devil's Advocate Mode" more than for or against this theme, more because my experience as a Merc player is pretty limited to Magnus1 in Mk2 and slowly working on a Damiano Steelhead army.
I think what would help the conversation and encourage constructive dialogue would be to do what the Khador forum regulars like to do with Khador theme forces: build some armies and see what we can come up with. Try to break the theme.
Post an army list that follows the rules of the theme: 1) All warcasters, warjacks, units, solos, and battle engines with the "Mercenary" descriptor in the title or subtitle are allowed. 2) For every 25 points of units and warjacks you get a free command attachment or small- or medium-based solo without the lesser warlock rule. 3) Warjacks controlled by a Jack Marshall get Flank [friendly warrior model] - list these warjacks separately from battlegroup jacks, with the battlegroup jacks under the warcaster and the marshaled jacks under their respective jack marshal. 4) For each unit in your army, one heavy warjack gains Advance Move, allowing it a full advance before the game begins. Note which heavy warjacks you think would want to get the Advance Move Bonus.
At the end of the army list note how many points of free solos are included, the number of warjacks that are jack marshaled / get the Flank bonus, and the number of heavy warjacks that get Advance Move.
One last requirement: design your army so that it is an actual functional army, one that you would field and actually have a hope of winning a game. Don't just throw a bunch of disjointed crap together that you know won't work, because then your argument is a hollow one. Put together a ball-busting pack of hellraisers that will slap around other armies, bend them over a table for indecent acts of their whim, and then take their lunch money.
Is this theme force broken? Prove it.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Aug 16, 2017 16:43:15 GMT
If that isn't fluffy enough for you, I'm not sure what is. Making up your own fluff is not really fluffy in the traditional sense. But sure, lets assume it is. Why then can you only do that with Mercs? If making up fluff for Horgenhold, Eyriss, Ragman and some Pirates working together is okay, why is making up fluff about Venators and Cataphracts working together wrong?
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Post by BoxyBrownMD on Aug 16, 2017 16:51:45 GMT
If that isn't fluffy enough for you, I'm not sure what is. Making up your own fluff is not really fluffy in the traditional sense. But sure, lets assume it is. Why then can you only do that with Mercs? If making up fluff for Horgenhold, Eyriss, Ragman and some Pirates working together is okay, why is making up fluff about Venators and Cataphracts working together wrong? I guess you didn't read my part about looking at previous lore of said characters? You can do it with anyone. However, with Mercs, it makes sense to be a disjointed group working together under an employer for various reasons. Choosing one of the most strict factions in terms of military and discipline like Skorne to be mixed makes literally zero sense any way you spin it.
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Post by W0lfBane on Aug 16, 2017 17:22:32 GMT
I see a lot of people complaining about this theme. Understandable, on the surface it looks like an unusually permissive theme force. Myself, I'm in "Devil's Advocate Mode" more than for or against this theme, more because my experience as a Merc player is pretty limited to Magnus1 in Mk2 and slowly working on a Damiano Steelhead army. I think what would help the conversation and encourage constructive dialogue would be to do what the Khador forum regulars like to do with Khador theme forces: build some armies and see what we can come up with. Try to break the theme. Post an army list that follows the rules of the theme: 1) All warcasters, warjacks, units, solos, and battle engines with the "Mercenary" descriptor in the title or subtitle are allowed. 2) For every 25 points of units and warjacks you get a free command attachment or small- or medium-based solo without the lesser warlock rule. 3) Warjacks controlled by a Jack Marshall get Flank [friendly warrior model] - list these warjacks separately from battlegroup jacks, with the battlegroup jacks under the warcaster and the marshaled jacks under their respective jack marshal. 4) For each unit in your army, one heavy warjack gains Advance Move, allowing it a full advance before the game begins. Note which heavy warjacks you think would want to get the Advance Move Bonus. At the end of the army list note how many points of free solos are included, the number of warjacks that are jack marshaled / get the Flank bonus, and the number of heavy warjacks that get Advance Move. One last requirement: design your army so that it is an actual functional army, one that you would field and actually have a hope of winning a game. Don't just throw a bunch of disjointed crap together that you know won't work, because then your argument is a hollow one. Put together a ball-busting pack of hellraisers that will slap around other armies, bend them over a table for indecent acts of their whim, and then take their lunch money. Is this theme force broken? Prove it. My friends fiana list i don't actually have the list but it should be easy for him to get 3 free solos and 3 jacks with advance move. Maybe one jack with flank. He has a battle engine so he suffers a little bit but he may take it out. I feel like this list might end up making better pirate lists than whatever the pirate theme ends up being. Edit: i ran his list back when it wasn't a theme list. And i remember it well. Hell probably change it but with little change he can get the above benefits
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