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Post by fragpalm on Mar 10, 2017 15:59:50 GMT
I played against Ghost Fleet at a tourney last weekend, and it did not go well to say the least.
I was a dork and dropped my Xerxis2 list (5 heavies) into it, hoping to tank all the plinking, but when all that attention is focused on a huge base like Xerxis2 it wears a warlock down pretty quickly, especially when Denny1 has no problem dropping stats. In hindsight my more generalized Makeda1 list (glad, molik, hydra, keltarii, and support) might have done better against it.
That said, I'll be heading to Lock and Load this year, and I figure I need to fend off Cryx in a new way using my third list, and so I'm looking for solutions to Ghost Fleet as well as infantry spam in general.
I outright stole this Hexy2 list from George Banavos (Greece Prime):
Hexy2 Tiberion Gladiator Bronzeback Agonizer Brute Razor Worm
Orin Chef
Keltarii (max) Handlers (max)
This list is rather well-rounded, with Hexy2 handling a lot of the infantry, and the battlegroup tackling harder targets. While it may be good against Ghost Fleet (Hexy's Hellfire RFPs the pirate leaders and disabling recursion, and his Ashes to Ashes withers their numbers, while Banishing Ward prevents debuffs on key models), it can also handle a lot of other lists in the case of an unexpected match up. Is it enough to bring Denny's theme list down? Or should some of the beasts be swapped out for something more geared toward infantry removal?
Interestingly, at this same tournament last weekend the Zaals were out in force. Immortals provide a whole different slant on infantry that I'm not sure Hexy2 handles very well, that of high armour--something shared with Ret Sentinels and a few others. The Hydra comes to mind (volume of sprays, continuous corrosion), but I can't figure out if it's a powerful counter, or simply a very vulnerable, expensive model that the Zaals can remove easily.
Any ideas on how to take on infantry of all kinds with a single list? Rasheth, Morghoul2, Hexeris1, and even Makeda3 all handle infantry as well, but which is best?
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Post by cybrid on Mar 10, 2017 17:32:41 GMT
My go to list for infantry clearing.
Arbiter Hexeris Mammoth Razor Worm x2 Extoller Soulward Tyrant Radeim Praetorian Ferox Venator Slingers Paingiver Beast Handlers
Both the Mammoth, Ferox, and Slingers love black spot. Ferox become mat 8 with the ability to generate 4 attacks on turns they don't charge with black spot. The
Mammoth can get 8 shots if you roll hot. I like to fire off its initial shots at the black spotted unit and then shoot its black spot shots into a heavy. Don't forget that blast damage will trigger black spot as well. This means you don't have to hit the unit directly so you might not have to boost attack rolls depending on what you are shooting.
Slingers are amazing against both sentinels and Immortals. The sentinels want to be base to base if your opponent does this you can punish him by putting continuous corrosion on his units. If he spreads them out their arm isn't high enough without the mini feat to save them. Against the immortals, you will be a pseudo weapon master so without the feat, their armor isn't high enough to save them. With the feat, you can just throw continuous corrosion out and kill a few off on his turn. The best part is corrosion won't trigger vengeance on any of the units.
The only problem with this list is you only have one heavy hitter and he is slow. So I would definitely tool your other lists with that in mind!
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Post by fragpalm on Mar 10, 2017 17:39:31 GMT
This is amazing input! What an excellent bunch of synergy there. It definitely solves Ghost Fleet and high armour infantry.
I do worry about the lack of punch too, but if you're sending stray pow15s into nearby heavies, that might help.
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Post by cybrid on Mar 10, 2017 17:49:00 GMT
The list can handle a couple heavies the Ferox are no slouches either they can wreck a heavy if they are allowed to get the charge off. The slingers are also pow 10 weapon masters against all warjacks and construct warbeasts. They can plink some damage on and maybe even cripple some systems depending on how the type of jack/beast they are hitting. But it starts to get a little dicey when there are 4+ heavies on the board.
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Post by Tyamat on Mar 15, 2017 17:50:09 GMT
I have yet to "wreck a heavy" with Ferox....ever. You do like 4 dmg to a arm 20 heavy on the charge. And your not going to get alot of them into a heavy cause of the big base.
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Post by sardonicartery on Mar 20, 2017 16:57:12 GMT
This is my current build (but admittedly, I haven't returned to him since the buffs):
(Hexeris 2) Lord Arbiter Hexeris [+27] - Agonizer [6] - Mammoth [38] - Titan Gladiator [15] - Razor Worm [7] - Cyclops Raider [9] Paingiver Beast Handlers (max) [7] Praetorian Karax (max) [11] Mortitheurge Willbreaker [4] Extoller Soulward [3] Swamp Gobbers Bellows Crew [2]
Raider and karax can easily be moved into reivers + UA.
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Post by Salmanilla on Mar 31, 2017 23:06:01 GMT
The Xekaar list I played last night I think might be able to handle ghost fleet to some extent, it brings magical sprays with Drakes and Chiron, and difficult to kill Karax with UA. The list was the following, but I'm planning on swapping out the Shaman as he didn't seem to get much done in the game, and I didn't find myself in a place where I needed Craft Talisman. The goal for the list is to be a major pain in the @$$ with Star-Crossed Karax who under their mini feat in shield wall go to ARM 22 and immune to knockdown/stationary effects, and then effective ARM 22 with Xekaar's feat while in shield wall. Marketh brings a second (or third) Mortality to be able to throw out at important targets, as well as the option of casting Deadweight to deny an important model it's Combat or Movement Action. The list has only been play tested once, but I really enjoyed it, and think it brings a lot of potential questions for my opponent to answer.
Beast Master Xekaar [+31] - Marketh [5] - Chiron [19] - Drake [8] - Drake [8] - Krea [7] - Brute [8] - Shaman [8] Willbreaker [4] Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5] Wrong Eye [17] - Snapjaw [0] Praetorian Karax (max) [11] Praetorian Karax Officer and Standard [4] Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew [2]
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Apr 1, 2017 1:16:56 GMT
I'm trying not to laugh at your answers for mass cryx infantry ideas x.x;
Zaal2 exhalted list is how you take down Cryx with little effort. Cataphract incindiarii is how you take down normal mass infantry. I'll explain both.
First, exhalted models will not fall easy and are very predatorial against anything ghostly or incorporeal as they ALL have magic weapons. With guardians they gain +2 movement and their attachment can also give them incorporeal so running into movement or placement issues is no longer a problem with exhalted bricks. Since you'll be running 20+ immortals, you can also spare a few to protect Zaal2 if they ever feel like trying an assassination run. Add this to their nasty armor and the only way for Cryx to fight them off is with their construct bonus models, which will never take them down fast enough.
Now the Incindiarii, 6, 3 inch aoes that auto fire whatever is underneath them x.O; next turn, every model that the fire doesn't go out on takes an auto 12+dice roll against their armor, generally killing every infantry unit that doesn't have boxes. tbh, even menoth is jealous of them since their bounce range and radius beats out their cleanser sprays, and blast damage does not have a defensive roll.
These two tactics are staples against mass infantry of any type and can only be held down by girded or quick, powerful units. Dig in is a little annoying against the Incindiarii, but generally those types of units are only fodder for melee when they need to constantly use the dig in command. I can remember a few times when drifting incindiarii rounds wiped out almost 2 cygnar gunlines in a single turn and left them crippled and begging for mercy x.x Just shot over the trenchers and lit them on fire, armor 14-15 with 1 box? almost auto dead the next round.
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Post by Salmanilla on Apr 1, 2017 1:54:15 GMT
I'm trying not to laugh at your answers for mass cryx infantry ideas x.x; Zaal2 exhalted list is how you take down Cryx with little effort. Cataphract incindiarii is how you take down normal mass infantry. I'll explain both. First, exhalted models will not fall easy and are very predatorial against anything ghostly or incorporeal as they ALL have magic weapons. With guardians they gain +2 movement and their attachment can also give them incorporeal so running into movement or placement issues is no longer a problem with exhalted bricks. Since you'll be running 20+ immortals, you can also spare a few to protect Zaal2 if they ever feel like trying an assassination run. Add this to their nasty armor and the only way for Cryx to fight them off is with their construct bonus models, which will never take them down fast enough. Now the Incindiarii, 6, 3 inch aoes that auto fire whatever is underneath them x.O; next turn, every model that the fire doesn't go out on takes an auto 12+dice roll against their armor, generally killing every infantry unit that doesn't have boxes. tbh, even menoth is jealous of them since their bounce range and radius beats out their cleanser sprays, and blast damage does not have a defensive roll. These two tactics are staples against mass infantry of any type and can only be held down by girded or quick, powerful units. Dig in is a little annoying against the Incindiarii, but generally those types of units are only fodder for melee when they need to constantly use the dig in command. I can remember a few times when drifting incindiarii rounds wiped out almost 2 cygnar gunlines in a single turn and left them crippled and begging for mercy x.x Just shot over the trenchers and lit them on fire, armor 14-15 with 1 box? almost auto dead the next round. Bit harsh here on this one, but I'll bite Ghost fleet is more than likely going to be lead by Denny1 or the Witch Coven. The later of these two reduces your model's LOS to 5" so all your opponent has to do is stay outside of 10" of your Incindiarii on feat turn, and you won't be shooting a single one. Add in Curse of Shadows, and now that unit of Immortals are ARM 15 (outside Zaal2 feat) and incorporeal models move past them effortlessly. The former of these two simply waits out your feat and counter feats to negate it, as well as having access to both Crippling Grasp and Parasite which is a 4 or 5 armor swing, and makes your SPD 4 Immortals SPD 0 (maybe SPD 1 at most if you can't go to zero). Good luck having Immortals moving under those conditions
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Apr 1, 2017 4:52:07 GMT
Definitely don't play Hexeris1, & please continue to believe the groupthink that he's a terrible Caster. His feat definitely does not completely hose most infantry lists that Cryx loves to play. Parasite is totally not enough of an answer to heavy armor that the meta loves so much, it's just mediocre. You should just ignore this guy's existence and focus on playing actual good Skorne casters like Zaal2. Deneghra1's Ghost Fleet definitely struggles to assassinate a 10/18 Warlock that gets dropped to 8/13 on Feat turn with a parasite and a pile of guns with long threat ranges that ignore LoS, & Zaal2 is definitely equip to deal with The Withering & Crippling Grasp.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Apr 1, 2017 8:08:27 GMT
Do you have an Extoller around? Probably. Do you have a Master Tormentor nearby? A distinct possibility. How about a Rhinodon instead? You suddenly have strong game against Incorporeal enemies. I'm pretty sure Hexy2 clears house with Ashes to Ashes also. The damage originates from a spell and is thus "magical".
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Post by fragpalm on Apr 1, 2017 11:07:25 GMT
Definitely don't play Hexeris1, & please continue to believe the groupthink that he's a terrible Caster. His feat definitely does not completely hose most infantry lists that Cryx loves to play. Parasite is totally not enough of an answer to heavy armor that the meta loves so much, it's just mediocre. You should just ignore this guy's existence and focus on playing actual good Skorne casters like Zaal2. Deneghra1's Ghost Fleet definitely struggles to assassinate a 10/18 Warlock that gets dropped to 8/13 on Feat turn with a parasite and a pile of guns with long threat ranges that ignore LoS, & Zaal2 is definitely equip to deal with The Withering & Crippling Grasp. The reverse psychology trick might have worked on me here, but I've considered Hexy1 for countering infantry for a while. I haven't gotten a lot of games in with him yet, but the time I'd tried to run double Brigands with him was a flop. I blame my inexperience, and that I hadn't bothered bringing a unit to Death March; when a unit of Nyss with Defender's Ward and Star-Crossed came my way I had no decent way to unjam. Those I did kill on my feat couldn't kill other Nyss, which was funny but also disappointing. That said, I think there's something to the feat against dudespam. Though pricey, an occasional Obliteration also can't hurt. My meta insists on running a ton of heavies, making my practice games with casters focused on infantry removal a bit of a pain. Perhaps because of this he is my best answer.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Apr 1, 2017 18:35:10 GMT
ignore the ghost that didn't realize I never put a direct caster down x.O; *waves hands mystically*
Zaal2's immortal list WILL decimate incorporeal lists and most cryx lists in general. However, that's only if you play the EXACT list and know your way around it. If you are not going exhalted then Zaal2 is just a huge paper weight. On the other hand, you can put the incindiarii into any list and suddenly have a powerful weapon against mass infantry. Play around with different casters using them (like Hexy and parasite) and you should find your counter pretty quickly. Oh and yeah... Zaal2 benefits from his own feat, feel free and drop him 4 armor x.x he's gaining 5 on the only turn he's not on guard.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Apr 1, 2017 19:27:30 GMT
ignore the ghost that didn't realize I never put a direct caster down x.O; *waves hands mystically* Zaal2's immortal list WILL decimate incorporeal lists and most cryx lists in general. However, that's only if you play the EXACT list and know your way around it. If you are not going exhalted then Zaal2 is just a huge paper weight. On the other hand, you can put the incindiarii into any list and suddenly have a powerful weapon against mass infantry. Play around with different casters using them (like Hexy and parasite) and you should find your counter pretty quickly. Oh and yeah... Zaal2 benefits from his own feat, feel free and drop him 4 armor x.x he's gaining 5 on the only turn he's not on guard. Have you actually played against Deneghra1 Ghost Fleet? Typical Ghost Fleet builds only bring Blackbane's, & the free Pistol Wraiths, and maybe a couple Machine Wraiths spending usually only 17-21 points on Incorporeal. The vast majority of the list are non-Incorporeal recursive Pirates. You gain 5 armor the turn you're not on guard? You need to be on guard every turn. Deneghra1 Ghost Fleet's assassination run is brutal if you don't have Stealth or a similar mechanic, and it's live every turn of the game because she has Parasite, Scourge (which she won't need vs a Def 10 caster), and a mountain of Ghost Shot guns that are constantly recurring themselves back. Immortals are going to decimate Deneghra1? How are they going to do that when The Withering makes them all speed 2 no running, no charging? On feat turn they threat 4", 7" if they give you vengeance. I don't even need to charge Immortals to kill them, their defense is low enough that even in a Krea Aura I can just shoot them to death. Is it your feat turn, if so I'll counter feat & time walk you. If not I'll Crippling Grasp your Immortal unit back down to 11/17 under a Krea aura, or Parasite you to 11/14 outside of it. Revenants can easily just shoot that down let alone if they get the alpha charge off on you. I might not even need to throw an arc node away to get CG on an immortal unit. CG is range 8. A max range CG on an Immortal unit reduces their charge range to 7". You can't even reach my Arc Node to retaliate with the unit I tagged as long as I don't give you a vengeance move that turn. The OP specified his issue was with the Deneghra run fleet. Sure Zaal2 might be able to run all over Skarre1 double Wraith Engines, but that's not what OP is struggling against here. Against Deneghra1 Zaal2 is going to struggle to stay alive, he's going to struggle to be relevant on scenario, & his list that relies on armor stacking is going to crumble under multiple armor Debuffs that are applied every turn of the game. As someone who plays a ton of Deneghra1 Ghost Fleet, lists like Zaal2 all of the Immortals are what I windmill slam Deneghra1 into, because unless I misplay hard, your only avenue to victory is to murder Deneghra, which is unlikely with a melee centric list.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Apr 1, 2017 22:35:17 GMT
Yes, an exhalted list would never have an ancestral guardian in it x.x; Nor would it have Hakaar ^-^ Oh and forget about the Cyclops shaman negating debuffs.
Anyways, Zaal2 is not the perfect answer for Deneghra, but you still haven't told me how you are going to stop 6 3 inch AoEs that auto kill all your infantry they hit x.x; or do you have infantry that has over 14 armor when playing Deneghra1 Ghost Fleet? When they miss they deviate and where they land is auto kill for your units... for ours? not so much. The double wraith engine list was made because Deneghra1 is easy to counter once you've seen her mechanics. To be honest, her venom spray template makes me shiver more than the crap you've been talking about.
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