Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724 
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Post by Arcaux on Aug 10, 2017 12:48:50 GMT
I believe the idea behind the warjack points nerf is that even at 24, she no longer gets a 4th free solo with Heavy metal. It's clever, but probably not enough.
The sad fact is that Haley2 would get played competitively even if she had a focus stat 2 lower. I can't think of another caster that is true for.
Taking 1 battlegroup point away helps.
Plus changes to Thorn who is clearly over the top at 13 points
I'd maybe consider taking away Field Marshall Future Sight as well as that's an extra 2-3 focus each turn
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Post by Aegis on Aug 10, 2017 13:06:08 GMT
Taking 1 battlegroup point away helps. Plus changes to Thorn who is clearly over the top at 13 points I'd maybe consider taking away Field Marshall Future Sight as well as that's an extra 2-3 focus each turn That is an a lot more reasonable nerf. |
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 10, 2017 13:12:15 GMT
WJPs aren't a solution for strong control casters. They might be a good balancing mechanism for casters that are just a little off the mark, but not for casters as splashy as Haley2 and Denny2. My suggestions: Haley2: one or more of the following: - feat goes to LOS - feat becomes shakeable - swap TK for something else (ie. a push effect spell - force grip, maybe?) Denny1: One of more of the following: - drop scourge - lose stealth - feat does not prevent running or charging - feat does not give -2 MAT, RAT, ARM. keeps other effects. Utterly Dreadful suggestions, might as well throw Denny 1 in the trash if you do that, Haley 2 wont be far behind. |
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Post by macdaddy on Aug 10, 2017 13:23:29 GMT
Her feat being shakeable would not be over to top 36cygnar24guy36 it would finally have a work around and her whole "tk heavy backwards on feat turn and laugh" play would not be a thing anymore which IMO is a good thing. Her feat is currently unintuitive. It really needs to be changed in some way. As far as denny 1....losing the charging, running, etc benefit as well as the speed debuff would be nice. It would make her have to play riskier and keep her from getting 2 free turns of nuking your stuff from orbit at no risk. |
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Aug 10, 2017 14:00:14 GMT
WJPs aren't a solution for strong control casters. They might be a good balancing mechanism for casters that are just a little off the mark, but not for casters as splashy as Haley2 and Denny2. My suggestions: Haley2: one or more of the following: - feat goes to LOS - feat becomes shakeable - swap TK for something else (ie. a push effect spell - force grip, maybe?) Denny1: One of more of the following: - drop scourge - lose stealth - feat does not prevent running or charging - feat does not give -2 MAT, RAT, ARM. keeps other effects. Utterly Dreadful suggestions, might as well throw Denny 1 in the trash if you do that, Haley 2 wont be far behind. to be brutally honest, Good. It took under a year to be right back to the cryx infantry and haley 2 boogeyman meta, and it all rides on a few overloaded kits. destroying their ability to warp the meta opens up a ton of stuff. |
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 10, 2017 14:06:34 GMT
Utterly Dreadful suggestions, might as well throw Denny 1 in the trash if you do that, Haley 2 wont be far behind. to be brutally honest, Good. It took under a year to be right back to the cryx infantry and haley 2 boogeyman meta, and it all rides on a few overloaded kits. destroying their ability to warp the meta opens up a ton of stuff. Ha Ha, I can definitely see where you are coming from, 'All New War' indeed |
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Aug 10, 2017 14:27:52 GMT
A lot of this would also be solved if they made TK a push. Place effects get around so many things, they Ignore terrain and mean you can turn them around. Making it a push in any direction like the Helios gun helps this immensely. That said, everytime it gets suggested Sturm and Drang and Scaverous fans come out the woodwork and cry it would ruin them  |
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Post by macdaddy on Aug 10, 2017 14:30:01 GMT
A lot of this would also be solved if they made TK a push. Place effects get around so many things, they Ignore terrain and mean you can turn them around. Making it a push in any direction like the Helios gun helps this immensely. That said, everytime it gets suggested Sturm and Drang and Scaverous fans come out the woodwork and cry it would ruin them Don't forget us Krueger 2 fans |
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Post by Cryptix on Aug 10, 2017 14:38:23 GMT
A lot of this would also be solved if they made TK a push. Place effects get around so many things, they Ignore terrain and mean you can turn them around. Making it a push in any direction like the Helios gun helps this immensely. That said, everytime it gets suggested Sturm and Drang and Scaverous fans come out the woodwork and cry it would ruin them IT WOULD REEEEEEEE SCAVIE DID NOTHING WRONG |
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Post by smoothcriminal on Aug 10, 2017 14:49:04 GMT
22 points is where casters start to come with a models that allows them to contest. You can't really get there on a normal caster.
25 pts is already a sign that she has abilities above rest of the casters who mostly have 27-30.
If we acknowledge that she needs some severe pts nerf to 22 or below then we acknowledge the big problem with her other abilities exist that doesn't warrant current 25 (which already is below average). Would be easier to identifiy and fix those problem abilities, won't it?
I think the problem of H2 and D1 (and Zerkova in future) is their feat. PP toned down some "do nothing" feats, but somehow let those stay.
Other feats either allow to charge but with a spd debuff or allow to shoot sometimes with magical weapon/stealth requirement. H2, D1, Z1 completely shut down both melee and shooting. They're slightly different, for example D1 doesn't exactly deny shooting, but gives you -2 rat, H2 does allow to shoot without moving, etc. But experienced player with those casters can position in a way to achieve full shutdown.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Aug 10, 2017 14:53:04 GMT
22 points is where casters start to come with a models that allows them to contest. You can't really get there on a normal caster. 25 pts is already a sign that she has abilities above rest of the casters who mostly have 27-30. If we acknowledge that she needs some severe pts nerf to 22 or below then we acknowledge the big problem with her other abilities exist that doesn't warrant current 25 (which already is below average). Would be easier to identifiy and fix those problem abilities, won't it? Depends on who you speak to. To us, sure. To PP, not so much. For the most part, they've bound themselves to the fluff and to their vision of a model, in some cases shackling models to over- or underpowered rule sets, and their on-again off-again desire for simplicity ties them to certain stats instead of simply tweaking a range to fit something. WJP, on the other hand, and a free floating balance point that I doubt PP would truly have much issue changing in more aggressive ways if that's what it came to. |
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flogger
Junior Strategist
Posts: 296
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Post by flogger on Aug 10, 2017 14:58:52 GMT
Making Haley2s feat require LoS and Denny1 losing Parasite would probably be enough to bring them in line.
Or just make their feats 10" (like they did with Wurmwood) and keep them as they are, that should also be enough,
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Post by pangurban on Aug 10, 2017 16:12:56 GMT
22 points is where casters start to come with a models that allows them to contest. You can't really get there on a normal caster. 25 pts is already a sign that she has abilities above rest of the casters who mostly have 27-30. If we acknowledge that she needs some severe pts nerf to 22 or below then we acknowledge the big problem with her other abilities exist that doesn't warrant current 25 (which already is below average). Would be easier to identifiy and fix those problem abilities, won't it? I think the problem of H2 and D1 (and Zerkova in future) is their feat. PP toned down some "do nothing" feats, but somehow let those stay. Other feats either allow to charge but with a spd debuff or allow to shoot sometimes with magical weapon/stealth requirement. H2, D1, Z1 completely shut down both melee and shooting. They're slightly different, for example D1 doesn't exactly deny shooting, but gives you -2 rat, H2 does allow to shoot without moving, etc. But experienced player with those casters can position in a way to achieve full shutdown. Zerkova's feat is amazing and having Sacred Ward on her helps too, but her spell list (even if it has several really good spells) isn't anywhere near on par with Haley's or Denny's and those two also have access to arc nodes to leverage those spells even more effectively. Khador's models make up for some of that, possibly, but I can't see Zerkova being in the same ballpark as the twisted sisters. |
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Aug 10, 2017 17:59:19 GMT
How much of the problem with Haley 2 is Telekinesis? Sometimes I do think that it should cost 3 because it is more powerful than most spells that do, or maybe Thexus and Haley should have Befuddle instead, but I'm not totally sure.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Aug 10, 2017 18:16:41 GMT
How much of the problem with Haley 2 is Telekinesis? Sometimes I do think that it should cost 3 because it is more powerful than most spells that do, or maybe Thexus and Haley should have Befuddle instead, but I'm not totally sure. ever been on the receiving end of multiple cheeky arcnoded TK turnarounds? It's rough vs anyone. TK is a seriously undercosted spell, IDK why they refuse to touch it. |
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