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Post by tarviche on Aug 8, 2017 16:29:11 GMT
I mostly play with friends and I have a hard time justifying playing Deneghra 1. It's just unpleasant. It's a shame, because she's got such a great spell list and is still very fragile, so there's a lot to think about--but her feat is just oppressive. I don't want to ruin two hours of my friend's day, where it feels like a slog even if they win.
Basically, "lose a turn" mechanics are a bad idea in every game. In a big game with lots of active models like Warmachine, it's totally fine for one model (or a few) to be incapacitated, but when it's most or all of your army? It's just not fun. I wouldn't want to play against Deneghra 1 (or Haley 2, or pre-nerf Haley 1).
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princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
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Post by princeraven on Aug 8, 2017 16:29:17 GMT
I find Arcana exciting to play around, the existence of trap cards is pretty much the opposite of a NPE to me.
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Post by pangurban on Aug 8, 2017 16:35:29 GMT
Can we collectively get over the fact that control and denial abilities are experienced as "not fun" by some/many players? They're not going away, they offer something different than merely slugging it out and the only meaningful difference with some of the more extreme DEF and ARM values is that the latter let you hope for dice spikes (wooohooo, right?) instead of having to play around them as best you can. I'm seriously fed up with the NPE argument. If you experience something as negative because it's just way too good, fine, that needs to be addressed. If you experience something as negative because it's not "fun" for you, I think you should maybe go looking for your big boy/girl pants and just deal with it.
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Post by welshhoppo on Aug 8, 2017 16:40:07 GMT
I mostly play with friends and I have a hard time justifying playing Deneghra 1. It's just unpleasant. It's a shame, because she's got such a great spell list and is still very fragile, so there's a lot to think about--but her feat is just oppressive. I don't want to ruin two hours of my friend's day, where it feels like a slog even if they win. Basically, "lose a turn" mechanics are a bad idea in every game. In a big game with lots of active models like Warmachine, it's totally fine for one model (or a few) to be incapacitated, but when it's most or all of your army? It's just not fun. I wouldn't want to play against Deneghra 1 (or Haley 2, or pre-nerf Haley 1). Dennys game is control via nerfing your opponent. There is no way of making it fun unfortunately. |
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Post by cainuslupus on Aug 8, 2017 17:39:21 GMT
I mostly play with friends and I have a hard time justifying playing Deneghra 1. It's just unpleasant. It's a shame, because she's got such a great spell list and is still very fragile, so there's a lot to think about--but her feat is just oppressive. I don't want to ruin two hours of my friend's day, where it feels like a slog even if they win. Basically, "lose a turn" mechanics are a bad idea in every game. In a big game with lots of active models like Warmachine, it's totally fine for one model (or a few) to be incapacitated, but when it's most or all of your army? It's just not fun. I wouldn't want to play against Deneghra 1 (or Haley 2, or pre-nerf Haley 1). Dennys game is control via nerfing your opponent. There is no way of making it fun unfortunately. But there are way to make it fair and balanced. For starters - she should be banned from Ghost Fleet, as that combination is way too powerful. Dunno if any other tweaks are needed. As for Haley2 - combination of her Feat and TK with Thorn is - basically - completelly idiotic and shows how Cygnar was treated during transition period from MK2. Lets see how long they can keep them as "Mary Sue" faction. |
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Post by welshhoppo on Aug 8, 2017 17:41:45 GMT
Dennys game is control via nerfing your opponent. There is no way of making it fun unfortunately. But there are way to make it fair and balanced. For starters - she should be banned from Ghost Fleet, as that combination is way too powerful. Dunno if any other tweaks are needed. As for Haley2 - combination of her Feat and TK with Thorn is - basically - completelly idiotic and shows how Cygnar was treated during transition period. Lets see how long they can keep it as "Mary Sue" faction. I also have no idea why Denny was picked as the battle box caster for Cryx. I wonder how how many people dropped the game because Denny kept killing them all the time. and Haley is just Haley. I don't know why PP can't fix her. |
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Post by cainuslupus on Aug 8, 2017 17:44:37 GMT
But there are way to make it fair and balanced. For starters - she should be banned from Ghost Fleet, as that combination is way too powerful. Dunno if any other tweaks are needed. As for Haley2 - combination of her Feat and TK with Thorn is - basically - completelly idiotic and shows how Cygnar was treated during transition period. Lets see how long they can keep it as "Mary Sue" faction. I also have no idea why Denny was picked as the battle box caster for Cryx. I wonder how how many people dropped the game because Denny kept killing them all the time. and Haley is just Haley. I don't know why PP can't fix her. At this point it's just inability to admit severe design mistake. |
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Post by Azuresun on Aug 8, 2017 20:31:47 GMT
Can we collectively get over the fact that control and denial abilities are experienced as "not fun" by some/many players? They're not going away, they offer something different than merely slugging it out and the only meaningful difference with some of the more extreme DEF and ARM values is that the latter let you hope for dice spikes (wooohooo, right?) instead of having to play around them as best you can. I'm seriously fed up with the NPE argument. If you experience something as negative because it's just way too good, fine, that needs to be addressed. If you experience something as negative because it's not "fun" for you, I think you should maybe go looking for your big boy/girl pants and just deal with it. Not all control abilities are equal. The factors in them are "How crippling are they?" and "How much counterplay is possible after list building?" For Deneghra1 and Haley2, the answers are "Very" and "None". Contrast with Sorscha1 (counterplay is possible by LOS-blocking, jacks and beasts with low DEF and high ARM won't really notice the feat) or Magnus2 (lower control area, doesn't work on place effects, allows some movement, has to put himself in danger to use it). |
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Post by Azuresun on Aug 8, 2017 20:35:28 GMT
But there are way to make it fair and balanced. For starters - she should be banned from Ghost Fleet, as that combination is way too powerful. Dunno if any other tweaks are needed. As for Haley2 - combination of her Feat and TK with Thorn is - basically - completelly idiotic and shows how Cygnar was treated during transition period from MK2. Lets see how long they can keep them as "Mary Sue" faction. Well, Haley2 was nerfed pretty heavily. No warjack bond (like Feora2), her feat is roughly half what it was (like Harbinger), and some of her spells got downgraded (like Morvahna2). That Haley remains top tier while the other three have all notably slid down the rankings of their factions says a lot about how ludicrous she was in Mk2.  |
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Post by Cryptix on Aug 8, 2017 21:45:51 GMT
Saying this as a forumite and not a mod, let's not to turn this thread into another Nerf Twins debate?
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Post by welshhoppo on Aug 8, 2017 21:55:33 GMT
Saying this as a forumite and not a mod, let's not to turn this thread into another Nerf Twins debate? No way, those bloody legion twins need a great big kick in the groin. |
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Post by pangurban on Aug 8, 2017 22:02:21 GMT
Can we collectively get over the fact that control and denial abilities are experienced as "not fun" by some/many players? They're not going away, they offer something different than merely slugging it out and the only meaningful difference with some of the more extreme DEF and ARM values is that the latter let you hope for dice spikes (wooohooo, right?) instead of having to play around them as best you can. I'm seriously fed up with the NPE argument. If you experience something as negative because it's just way too good, fine, that needs to be addressed. If you experience something as negative because it's not "fun" for you, I think you should maybe go looking for your big boy/girl pants and just deal with it. Not all control abilities are equal. The factors in them are "How crippling are they?" and "How much counterplay is possible after list building?" For Deneghra1 and Haley2, the answers are "Very" and "None". Contrast with Sorscha1 (counterplay is possible by LOS-blocking, jacks and beasts with low DEF and high ARM won't really notice the feat) or Magnus2 (lower control area, doesn't work on place effects, allows some movement, has to put himself in danger to use it). Sure. But you made a post specifically to point out Denny and Haley aren't just powerful but also powerful in a way that's not fun to play against. I have no problem with the first argument, but the second sticks in my craw. "Not fun" is subjective. |
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Post by DanX on Aug 8, 2017 23:06:27 GMT
The spell TK, if it was once per turn, would still be one of the best spells in the game right? Not advocating this change, but noting it's amazingly good.
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Post by jonnyboy on Aug 9, 2017 2:34:00 GMT
Not all control abilities are equal. The factors in them are "How crippling are they?" and "How much counterplay is possible after list building?" For Deneghra1 and Haley2, the answers are "Very" and "None". Contrast with Sorscha1 (counterplay is possible by LOS-blocking, jacks and beasts with low DEF and high ARM won't really notice the feat) or Magnus2 (lower control area, doesn't work on place effects, allows some movement, has to put himself in danger to use it). Sure. But you made a post specifically to point out Denny and Haley aren't just powerful but also powerful in a way that's not fun to play against. I have no problem with the first argument, but the second sticks in my craw. "Not fun" is subjective. Subjective to the person playing haley 2 or denegra 1 it sounds. I doubt anyone enjoys slogging through denny's recursion army while losing a turn and models due to a feat. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 3:07:07 GMT
I enjoy trying to solve the puzzle. i enjoy trying to build a list and play it well enough to weather the feat turn and fight back/find an angle to kill denny. I enjoy watching the meta adjust. I enjoy a game of figuring out and putting together power combos. I enjoy one of the coolest, most thematic lists in the game being competitive and getting its time in the sun. I enjoy doing something other than whining. Because for all the whining the community has done, I'm not sure it has been in the game's best interest for PP to listen so much of it.
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