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Post by snarlyyow on Aug 1, 2017 20:54:45 GMT
In another thread I mentioned that I thought Nemo1 and Darius were both competitive options. OctaviusMaximus disagreed. I thought this was worth exploring so I messaged him to get his thoughts. He replied thusly:
I thought this was worth exploring because I feel Darius and Nemo1 are both highly under-rated and break into our top seven or top 8 casters. I feel like both have drawbacks but both have good reasons to be played. Oddly, both casters have different reasons for being played. In the case of Darius, he's a great pair for Haley2. Nemo1 on the other hand doesn't pair well but is a strong counter to several problematic lists, he also has tools for a lot of different situations.
What saith the community? Who has experience with either of these casters?
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Aug 1, 2017 22:06:50 GMT
I've been tinkering with Nemo1, and his biggest flaw remains his feat. It's a broken record, but his feat has such a minimal impact that I find it depressing.
It is only strong into large numbers of low armor warjacks. The only way it would be strong into Hordes is against Shredder spam.
The rest of his kit is very good.
-Supercharged is a strong field marshal. The Hurricane likes having focus to boost every damage shot. It's an easy way to raise the damage potential of every jack.
-Arcane Accumulator is very easy to build for with Heavy Metal. For turn 2, he has a ton of focus, and then you can usually get 1-2 each turn from there.
-His Spell List has nothing but good spells, and he has the focus to use them. Voltaic Snare is only useful in WM, but it's so strong and cheap that it's fine.
If his feat had a bigger, reliable impact on the game, I'd totally agree with you ranking him in the top 8. As he is, I'm just not sure.
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Post by Aegis on Aug 2, 2017 3:22:22 GMT
I tend to agree with Octavius on the fact that Darius absolutely wants to play Heavy Metal but has quite a few skornergy to it.
I absolutely loved Darius at the beginning of MK3, and had quite a lot of success with it, but I found that he really likes character jacks like Thorn or Gallant, loves jacks that can partially auto-fuel like Stormclads, and has some great sinergy with some mercs like Lanyssa.
All those things can't be played in Heavy Metal (Stormclads can, but you can't play Stormknights to fuel them).
His feat only really works on Colossals, or to a lesser extempt on spammed Centurions, and that is one of his main problems, together with the order-of-activation issues built-in in his package (he would like to go before his BG for Crane, hotswapping Refuge or Full Throttle, but actually have to go after for Jackhammer).
Right now, the part that I liked most of him (the Refuge-Jackhammer bullets) is difficult to play since it doesn't synergize with Heavy Metal, and so you are stuck with double-colossal builds that actually work, but honestly aren't my piece of cake, and are quite wasteful of a big part of his package (Refuge, Crane, ecc...) that don't work on gargossals.
As it is now, I often find that he is almost there but fails a bit short. His package is not worth going out of theme for, and themes disrupt his strategy too much, denying him some key pieces that he really likes to have access to.
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Post by Aegis on Aug 2, 2017 3:38:36 GMT
I've been tinkering with Nemo1, and his biggest flaw remains his feat. It's a broken record, but his feat has such a minimal impact that I find it depressing. It is only strong into large numbers of low armor warjacks. The only way it would be strong into Hordes is against Shredder spam. The rest of his kit is very good. -Supercharged is a strong field marshal. The Hurricane likes having focus to boost every damage shot. It's an easy way to raise the damage potential of every jack. -Arcane Accumulator is very easy to build for with Heavy Metal. For turn 2, he has a ton of focus, and then you can usually get 1-2 each turn from there. -His Spell List has nothing but good spells, and he has the focus to use them. Voltaic Snare is only useful in WM, but it's so strong and cheap that it's fine. If his feat had a bigger, reliable impact on the game, I'd totally agree with you ranking him in the top 8. As he is, I'm just not sure. Remember that you can re-cast upkeeps if needed. In Heavy Metal, Nemo1 gets almost always 3 extra focus, due to Arlan Empowering, JR recasting AS, and Jakes casting Energizer. I agree that the main drawback of Nemo1 is having a poor feat. On turn-by turn basis he is pretty good.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Aug 2, 2017 3:44:59 GMT
I've been tinkering with Nemo1, and his biggest flaw remains his feat. It's a broken record, but his feat has such a minimal impact that I find it depressing. It is only strong into large numbers of low armor warjacks. The only way it would be strong into Hordes is against Shredder spam. The rest of his kit is very good. -Supercharged is a strong field marshal. The Hurricane likes having focus to boost every damage shot. It's an easy way to raise the damage potential of every jack. -Arcane Accumulator is very easy to build for with Heavy Metal. For turn 2, he has a ton of focus, and then you can usually get 1-2 each turn from there. -His Spell List has nothing but good spells, and he has the focus to use them. Voltaic Snare is only useful in WM, but it's so strong and cheap that it's fine. If his feat had a bigger, reliable impact on the game, I'd totally agree with you ranking him in the top 8. As he is, I'm just not sure. Remember that you can re-cast upkeeps if needed. In Heavy Metal, Nemo1 gets almost always 3 extra focus, due to Arlan Empowering, JR recasting AS, and Jakes casting Energizer. I agree that the main drawback of Nemo1 is having a poor feat. On turn-by turn basis he is pretty good. I know. Usually Junior casting AS again is a bit dangerous for my tastes. But yes, you can do that if the extra focus is needed. I have found 9 focus to be plenty, most of the time.
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Post by Aegis on Aug 2, 2017 3:47:32 GMT
Dunno if you already did that, but if you think that you will need to recast AS, you do not upkeep it, so JR still gets to camp 1 focus after recasting.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Aug 2, 2017 4:10:04 GMT
Dunno if you already did that, but if you think that you will need to recast AS, you do not upkeep it, so JR still gets to camp 1 focus after recasting. Which mainly limits Juniors possible jacks to Fireflies and Hunters whenever you want that extra focus while he lives safely and while Reposition helps, its not the be all end all.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Aug 2, 2017 12:51:21 GMT
Aegis I also knew that. But if Junior has a Charger (who wants a focus), then they'll still have less focus than desired. Let's not hold up the conversation by squabbling about this.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 2, 2017 13:12:46 GMT
I taking the following Darius list to a local tourney this weekend, will feedback how it goes
Darius (Heavy Metal) - Squire - Stormwall - Stormwall - Lancer - Sentinel
Arlan Junior - Sentinel Runewood
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Post by snarlyyow on Aug 2, 2017 15:31:40 GMT
So I have to disagree that Nemo1's feat is "bad". I mean, it is. It isn't good. But I also said that Nemo1 can solve some problems in the meta. I started looking at him as a serious answer to Caine3 and Sloan, both casters were everywhere in tournaments as the Cygnar drop. Nemo really hoses both of those casters in the mirror when considering his feat and decel. And his feat is still free damage on stuff which isn't shabby. Boosted POW16s into beasts are largely good. So I started playing Nemo1 and had good success with him into Mercs, Cygnar, and Convergence. I played against a Mags2 double Galleon list and Nemo1 handled it with aplomb. He dick kicks CoC pretty hard and Decel is sweet into a mother gunline. Caine3 and Sloan are basically unplayable rubbish into Nemo1. He also has game into Retribution and, at times, Menoth (he hoses Rez2).
I feel like these are all matchups where Nemo1 can succeed with a handful of matchups where he is heavily favored. And, again, it's his feat, Decel, and Voltaic Snare taking you there. If we were talking about a single list tournament I'd agree with you but that's not how the game works.
Darius is interesting to me because he's a skew list, he asks a question "Can you one round a colossal?" and if not he wins. I agree his kit is wonky with colossals. But Crane is totally overvalued. It's a 2" move but jacks can run and you can then jackhammer them. Either way you're getting a 12" non-linear threat. Darius is great into mirror, Caine3 basically can't remove a colossal, even on feat. Stormknights can't do it. And Darius' colossal beats Haley's colossal everyday. Ret is a weird one for him, so is Khador, but Darius can also pick up slack on the Hordes side of things pretty easily. Circle and Legion both have access to Wraithbane but I'm not certain that's enough to ride to a victory, especially for Circle. So if you have to play him into those matchups, while not ideal, I think it can be done.
I've won more games with Nemo1 this year than any other caster. Mostly it's been picking good matchups for him. My one notable loss was to Jaden Iwaassa (of Druid's Dice fame) when he had a Vindictus/Rez2 pair and I swore he'd pick Rez2 but played Vinny instead and I didn't have a clear answer to it; that game was over before it began. The more I play Nemo the more I think he's one of our few power casters. The stipulation being that you have to really pick his matchups. You have to know when you can drop him and breeze to a victory and when you cannot do so. And I think that's a good spot considering loads of folks look at Nemo1 and think he's near the bottom of the barrel, which I initially did. Then I started playing him and saying "Wow. This guy, when played into the right matchups, is a real ballbuster." And while his feat only half works on colossals, Voltaic Snare always does, it costs two, can't miss, and is a feat level effect on 40 point models that you can do turn after turn after turn.
I think Nemo1 is up there with our other B+ and even A-tier casters, as ranked in MKiii terms. You got Haley2 and prolly Haley3 at the top, then Stryker1, Sloan/Caine3, Stryker2, Darius, Nemo1, and Stryker2.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Aug 2, 2017 15:42:15 GMT
Interesting points. Could you give some examples of Nemo1 doing impressive stuff in your games?
As you say, he's an undervalued caster. So detailing his strengths would be really helpful.
And what kind of matchups do you really want to avoid?
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Post by snarlyyow on Aug 2, 2017 16:07:18 GMT
Interesting points. Could you give some examples of Nemo1 doing impressive stuff in your games? As you say, he's an undervalued caster. So detailing his strengths would be really helpful. And what kind of matchups do you really want to avoid? So I had a game at a tournament into Caine3. My list has three fireflies which exist as a dude removal/jam piece. Lightning Shroud on the Centurion and then most of my list is then immune to lightning damage. He had Ace, four Chargers (maybe 5?), and a Hurricane. Arcane Shield on Dynamo, Decel goes up, all my heavies are ARM20+. Turn 2 I run my fireflies in place, they'd taken some damage from errant charger shots bottom of 1, but get them all within 5" of all the chargers and Ace, boost a bunch of damage. They're all disrupted, I took out systems on a couple. I voltaic snared the Hurricane and moved all my heavies forward to threaten it; the big guns from the Hurricane can't hurt my army and the little guns are all dice off 7 or more. It didn't allow him to feat on his second turn because everything was disrupted so he durdled around. Then turn 3 I have the Fireflies engage all his chargers, either with charges or runs. So now they've taken damage from the feat, the charges, and Caine's Chargers have to take free strikes to get out of melee. The Centurion and a Stormclad kill the Hurricane. And, yeah. The match was totally lopsided. Caine didn't have a chance. All I had to do was keep Nemo1 alive which was easy since I can spend focus to increase my control area for the feat. I played a 50 point team event at Lock and Load. Mags2, double Galleon. After a long weekend I forgot about the drag and lost my only firefly early. It didn't matter. I threw out a Voltaic Snare on one Galleon to keep my army sake and beat up the second with Dynamo/Stormclad, all the while using Jakes' Sidekick to prevent drags. I had a game against Helynna's Pacific Rim list (3 colossals). Scenario had an objective and opponent put two colossals B2B with the Objective to prevent LOS to Helynna. I cast Voltaic Snare on the Objective which got both colossals and allowed me to move up the table with ease and coast to a scenario victory. In short, Nemo's feat goes a long way toward shutting down lights and heavies. Voltaic Snare shuts down colossals. You're gonna feat, shut down the opposition's jacks, get into position, then kill them the next turn. And there won't be anything they can do about it. What doesn't Nemo want to see? Prolly mass weaponmasters. Vinny was a problem because of the speed he puts on the Vengers, and they're all blessed weaponmasters which is bad, bad stuff. Cavalry in general is probably pretty bad, besides for Lances because they're shooting is so bad against Nemo1 and Nemo1 takes a bunch of reach jacks which prevents them from repositioning. But, yeah, Vengers with Vinny or Vlad Cav is prolly bad. Nemo1 can play into Hordes if he has to, it's not the sort of lopsided match he can unexpectedly give to other armies, but a Strength buff and Locomotion and four focus allocation are still a very real thing. Dynamo is amazeballs always, into virtually any matchup. Still, there are better options into trolls and Skorne and such.
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Post by Aegis on Aug 2, 2017 16:30:46 GMT
I really agree that both Darius and Nemo1 are at least B+ casters and not near the bottom at all... The problem is that tournament lists are generically considered viable starting from A-.
I liked them both since beginning of MK3, and I may agree that Nemo1 could be an A- with Heavy Metal (he synergizes very well with it)...
On Darius, I dunno. Like I said double colossals isn't a type of list I like, so I didn't tested it, but for sure all other lists with him lost a lot from the new themed environment.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Aug 2, 2017 16:33:12 GMT
Interesting points. Could you give some examples of Nemo1 doing impressive stuff in your games? As you say, he's an undervalued caster. So detailing his strengths would be really helpful. And what kind of matchups do you really want to avoid? So I had a game at a tournament into Caine3. My list has three fireflies which exist as a dude removal/jam piece. Lightning Shroud on the Centurion and then most of my list is then immune to lightning damage. He had Ace, four Chargers (maybe 5?), and a Hurricane. Arcane Shield on Dynamo, Decel goes up, all my heavies are ARM20+. Turn 2 I run my fireflies in place, they'd taken some damage from errant charger shots bottom of 1, but get them all within 5" of all the chargers and Ace, boost a bunch of damage. They're all disrupted, I took out systems on a couple. I voltaic snared the Hurricane and moved all my heavies forward to threaten it; the big guns from the Hurricane can't hurt my army and the little guns are all dice off 7 or more. It didn't allow him to feat on his second turn because everything was disrupted so he durdled around. Then turn 3 I have the Fireflies engage all his chargers, either with charges or runs. So now they've taken damage from the feat, the charges, and Caine's Chargers have to take free strikes to get out of melee. The Centurion and a Stormclad kill the Hurricane. And, yeah. The match was totally lopsided. Caine didn't have a chance. All I had to do was keep Nemo1 alive which was easy since I can spend focus to increase my control area for the feat. I played a 50 point team event at Lock and Load. Mags2, double Galleon. After a long weekend I forgot about the drag and lost my only firefly early. It didn't matter. I threw out a Voltaic Snare on one Galleon to keep my army sake and beat up the second with Dynamo/Stormclad, all the while using Jakes' Sidekick to prevent drags. I had a game against Helynna's Pacific Rim list (3 colossals). Scenario had an objective and opponent put two colossals B2B with the Objective to prevent LOS to Helynna. I cast Voltaic Snare on the Objective which got both colossals and allowed me to move up the table with ease and coast to a scenario victory. In short, Nemo's feat goes a long way toward shutting down lights and heavies. Voltaic Snare shuts down colossals. You're gonna feat, shut down the opposition's jacks, get into position, then kill them the next turn. And there won't be anything they can do about it. What doesn't Nemo want to see? Prolly mass weaponmasters. Vinny was a problem because of the speed he puts on the Vengers, and they're all blessed weaponmasters which is bad, bad stuff. Cavalry in general is probably pretty bad, besides for Lances because they're shooting is so bad against Nemo1 and Nemo1 takes a bunch of reach jacks which prevents them from repositioning. But, yeah, Vengers with Vinny or Vlad Cav is prolly bad. Nemo1 can play into Hordes if he has to, it's not the sort of lopsided match he can unexpectedly give to other armies, but a Strength buff and Locomotion and four focus allocation are still a very real thing. Dynamo is amazeballs always, into virtually any matchup. Still, there are better options into trolls and Skorne and such. Great write up! I hadn't considered Voltaic Snare on Colossals. That makes a ton of sense. I can see him controlling jacks very well.
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Post by Aegis on Aug 2, 2017 16:40:34 GMT
Voltaic Snare on Colossals was his main trick since MK2 (actually, in MK2 was even worse!) Nemo1 was always a quite interesting caster, despite the naysayers (that probably have only Haley2 as definition of "viable"). My biggest issue with him is Hordes. Sure, he can play into it, but then he hasn't a feat at all (a couple of POW 14 hit are really meh, expecially when crippling aspects is meaningless due to hordes caster healing), and adding infantry spams to the list that he doesn't like I feel he has a bit too much matchup holes (while, I must admit, playing THead with him alleviates the infantry spam problems, but that is another un-appreciated model and I don't want to derail...). That said, I agree and can confirm that against jack spams he is bonkers.
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