moquan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 193
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Post by moquan on Jul 31, 2017 8:48:38 GMT
Amon = 50-39 Durst = 9-11 Durant2 = 2-0 Feora1= 4-1 Feora2 = 2-3 Feora3= 7-1 Kreoss1 = 6-6 Kreoss2 = 1-0 Kreoss3 = 10-4 Malekus = 1-3 Reznik1 = 2-3 Reznik2 = 10-9 Severius1 = 4-3 Severius2 = 10-13 High Reclaimer = 20-9 Testament = 7-3 Harbinger = 18-7 Thyra = 17-7 Vindictus = 42-16
In an effort to help people get a better view how the faction fares it might be nice to offer a win rating. If you want to contribute, please copy the last itteration of this list and add your own results to it. I will try to keep this first post updated on a daily basis.
Good luck!
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martini
Junior Strategist
Posts: 119
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Post by martini on Jul 31, 2017 9:14:06 GMT
Tournament only?
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moquan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 193
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Post by moquan on Jul 31, 2017 9:20:33 GMT
So far these are not tournament results (my first SR17 will be in two weeks). However I mostly play practice games for tournaments and the WTC so that is basically at a similar level. But wouldn't all results be informative?
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 31, 2017 14:23:35 GMT
So far these are not tournament results (my first SR17 will be in two weeks). However I mostly play practice games for tournaments and the WTC so that is basically at a similar level. But wouldn't all results be informative? Not necessarily. I took out a newb about this time a year ago in Testament vs Ossyan. He didn't know what shatterstorm was about and didn't use it, and ended up losing kind of a gimme game.
One of the ultimate problems in comparing faction, forces, characters, spells, armies, or whatever grouping of whatever game online or IRL is that nobody can truly vouch for the actual skill of any player in a non-professional* game, even themselves. Nor can it account for a local, area-based meta: I, for instance, don't fear ghost fleet because our only cryx main doesn't own any relevant models, and people with them as a side faction don't have the spam. So while all we have is comparing the relative strengths and attributes of the different casters and army compositions, that won't help someone who just doesn't get the caster in question.
*professional games are played at a high enough skill level that many times, the benefits of different groups or characters display themselves much more starkly.
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draycos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 167
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Post by draycos on Jul 31, 2017 14:40:59 GMT
So far these are not tournament results (my first SR17 will be in two weeks). However I mostly play practice games for tournaments and the WTC so that is basically at a similar level. But wouldn't all results be informative? Not necessarily. I took out a newb about this time a year ago in Testament vs Ossyan. He didn't know what shatterstorm was about and didn't use it, and ended up losing kind of a gimme game.
One of the ultimate problems in comparing faction, forces, characters, spells, armies, or whatever grouping of whatever game online or IRL is that nobody can truly vouch for the actual skill of any player in a non-professional* game, even themselves. Nor can it account for a local, area-based meta: I, for instance, don't fear ghost fleet because our only cryx main doesn't own any relevant models, and people with them as a side faction don't have the spam. So while all we have is comparing the relative strengths and attributes of the different casters and army compositions, that won't help someone who just doesn't get the caster in question.
*professional games are played at a high enough skill level that many times, the benefits of different groups or characters display themselves much more starkly.
I have to agree. Having a win/loss ratio is cool, but has far to many variables to be of actual use. Just to give a single example of this... If we had a caster that had a High skill cap and high reward (Harby, Thyra, ect.), many high level players would be playing them. This means skilled players will report wins or losses with them. New players see a good win ratio and pick up the caster, not realizing that this caster is difficult to play. So now we end up with a pile of new, unskilled players reporting losses with a caster that is top tier when played correctly. Generally speaking... the New players (myself included) are far more common than the Tournament level skilled ones. By watching only the tournament level results, we are collecting data from a some what controlled and even playgroup which represents an overall meta. That being said... Should I report my Malekus win against a Grymkin player last week? It was his first game with the heritic (50pt army box available for grymkin) and second or third overall with the faction.
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moquan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 193
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Post by moquan on Jul 31, 2017 15:03:59 GMT
Someone winning in a Masters tournament could have faced a few unskilled opponents who are just there to enjoy the weekend instead of competing. But then I would still say 6-0 for that player instead of 4-0 for example. These numbers are most meaningful when both players are equally skilled at the game and have the same level of mastery of their lists. That's rather impossible to guarantee.
It should be seen as a collective thing I guess. An overall trend of caster usage and their winrates. If something weird pops-up like someone reporting a 20-0 rate with Kreoss2 for example, I would like to know the list and the matchups played.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 31, 2017 15:14:28 GMT
Someone winning in a Masters tournament could have faced a few unskilled opponents who are just there to enjoy the weekend instead of competing. But then I would still say 6-0 for that player instead of 4-0 for example. These numbers are most meaningful when both players are equally skilled at the game and have the same level of mastery of their lists. That's rather impossible to guarantee. It should be seen as a collective thing I guess. An overall trend of caster usage and their winrates. If something weird pops-up like someone reporting a 20-0 rate with Kreoss2 for example, I would like to know the list and the matchups played. The dream.....
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Post by greytemplar on Jul 31, 2017 16:00:41 GMT
Lets see, last 6 months that I remember.
Vindictus: 2 losses 13 wins Amon: 0 losses 8 wins Reznik2: 1 loss 5 wins Tristan2: 0 losses 2 wins Sevy1: 0 losses 4 wins Sevy2: 1 loss 1 win Reznik1: 0 loss 1 win Thyra: 0 loss 2 wins
I've only counted tournament results or games vs skilled players. Not counting all the baby seal clubbing that sometimes happens when you get a newbie.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jul 31, 2017 17:16:26 GMT
Lets see, last 6 months that I remember. Vindictus: 2 losses 13 wins Amon: 0 losses 8 wins Reznik2: 1 loss 5 wins Tristan2: 0 losses 2 wins Sevy1: 0 losses 4 wins Sevy2: 1 loss 1 win Reznik1: 0 loss 1 win Thyra: 0 loss 2 wins I've only counted tournament results or games vs skilled players. Not counting all the baby seal clubbing that sometimes happens when you get a newbie. So you're saying that when you exclude baby seal clubbing your win-loss rate is 34 to 4?
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Post by eggory on Jul 31, 2017 17:37:52 GMT
Lets see, last 6 months that I remember. Vindictus: 2 losses 13 wins Amon: 0 losses 8 wins Reznik2: 1 loss 5 wins Tristan2: 0 losses 2 wins Sevy1: 0 losses 4 wins Sevy2: 1 loss 1 win Reznik1: 0 loss 1 win Thyra: 0 loss 2 wins I've only counted tournament results or games vs skilled players. Not counting all the baby seal clubbing that sometimes happens when you get a newbie. I'd like to know how you're playing Vindictus. I've never understood how he should be played/ the list he should bring but clearly, you have lots of experience with him.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 31, 2017 17:46:37 GMT
Lets see, last 6 months that I remember. Vindictus: 2 losses 13 wins Amon: 0 losses 8 wins Reznik2: 1 loss 5 wins Tristan2: 0 losses 2 wins Sevy1: 0 losses 4 wins Sevy2: 1 loss 1 win Reznik1: 0 loss 1 win Thyra: 0 loss 2 wins I've only counted tournament results or games vs skilled players. Not counting all the baby seal clubbing that sometimes happens when you get a newbie. I'd like to know how you're playing Vindictus. I've never understood how he should be played/ the list he should bring but clearly, you have lots of experience with him. Use feat to buy the board, very little can threaten your army properly while it's up and no one wants to wander into range of 14 knights exemplar. Then use the lead you just got on scenario to force them to engage under less than stellar circumstances, or better yet engage them first anyway. You can leave a mechanic on the flag at about 11 inches behind the front line if you're lucky under this plan, clocking scenario fast while you fight the attrition war with all the exemplar.
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Post by greytemplar on Jul 31, 2017 17:52:04 GMT
My Vindictus list is
Vindictus -Eye of Truth -Devout -Hierophant 3 units of KE+UA max Flamebringers 2 Monks Nicea 2 Mechaniks or 2 Wracks or 1 of each. Haven't fully settled on this yet. 2 fixers for Eye of Truth is really nice, it makes him super hard to kill between Oracular Vision, Admonition, and 2D3+2 repair.
As for how to play. I slap Defenders Ward on the Flamebringers and usually do a flank. Feat on bottom of 1 or Top of 2. Feat turn the Flamebringers can usually charge the enemy, do some damage, and side-step+repo back into range of the feat which often makes them untouchable.
Flamebringers have a total 14.5" charge threat, with up to 6" of side-stepping and then 5" repo. Though I often find they don't need to charge. 11.5" walking is often enough. They can wipe out whole units on their own and run away out of threat range since as long as you are outside the enemy's walking threat range the feat saves you from eating a charge. They can shave the front ranks off enemy chaff quite easily and be outside retaliation from the 3rd rows. Jacks and beasts only options are to trample forward to get swings, which is a losing proposition so they usually just shuffle around.
Knights get thrown forward so that they can get an alpha strike off the turn after the feat. I usually throw 1 member of each unit forward so he's killable. The enemy is tempted to proc battle driven since it's their only option to do damage usually. If they don't, I have more dudes the next turn.
Last game was vs Grissle2 with 2 Mountain Kings and 2 max Fennblades. Flamebringers wiped out one unit of fennblades. a unit of KE and Nicea killed one mountain king, the other was somewhat stuck behind a house in the middle of the table and couldn't get to the other side of it because of a monk being in the way.
Monks are the jam. They get in the face of the enemy's biggest hitters and slow them down. Colossals are their favorite, but regular heavies work too. Use them in combination with terrain to limit enemy movement.
Nicea is spot removal for anything specific that needs to die.
The strength of the list is forcing your opponent into a bad spot between taking your alpha on the nose or giving up scenario. The weaknesses are if the enemy can do a decent amount of damage through the feat and successfully out attrition you. Because outside the feat the Knights are easy to kill. So look out for lots of magical shooting. Also beware anybody who can counter feat. Haley2 will destroy you if she is able to feat after you to negate your own alpha strike. If you counter feat her its a much better scenario. So you really need to draw her feat out, then counter feat to stay alive. And then alpha her on your turn. Same thing vs anybody with a timelock feat.
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moquan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 193
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Post by moquan on Jul 31, 2017 18:01:41 GMT
Lets see, last 6 months that I remember. Vindictus: 2 losses 13 wins Amon: 0 losses 8 wins Reznik2: 1 loss 5 wins Tristan2: 0 losses 2 wins Sevy1: 0 losses 4 wins Sevy2: 1 loss 1 win Reznik1: 0 loss 1 win Thyra: 0 loss 2 wins I've only counted tournament results or games vs skilled players. Not counting all the baby seal clubbing that sometimes happens when you get a newbie. Is this all SR17? I thought the CID for that began 3 months ago or something like that. But this is some decent trackrecord! Are you coming to the WTC?
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Post by greytemplar on Jul 31, 2017 18:25:45 GMT
Its not all sr17. I'd say at least half was sr16. I wish I could go to the WTC. But the next big thing I'll get to is LVO most likely. Work schedule is rather fluid.
I've just been playing the hell out of Vindictus to get scary good with him. Hopefully I can pair him with my dual Revelator HR list for LVO.
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Post by paradox on Jul 31, 2017 19:27:41 GMT
One of the ultimate problems in comparing faction, forces, characters, spells, armies, or whatever grouping of whatever game online or IRL is that nobody can truly vouch for the actual skill of any player in a non-professional* game, even themselves. *professional games are played at a high enough skill level that many times, the benefits of different groups or characters display themselves much more starkly. I think I just threw up in my mouth a little bit. There's no such thing as "professional" Warmachine. Nobody does this for a living. No on's skill is such that it might be "professional" by any definition. At best, PP staff playing teh game is the closest we get to any rational meaning of "professional," though I know this is probably not what you meant. Competitive? Sure. Professional? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL Side question, what if my meta consists of national and international event winners? But what if we also play casually an not competitively? Better still, what if one of those local's competitive way of playing is incredibly casual, to the point where he makes lists for events based on requests of "play X?" What if, on the other hand, a very active play group is also very new, but holds many events? You're producing event results, but without respect to "skill level." So constrain yourself to large events, but what is "large?" Further, such events are necessarily limited, both in the number of players that can play in an event, and the ability of players to travel to events at all. You can catalog event results and try to tease out trends, but that's about the best you can do. How do you control for facts such as certain "big names" being cheaters, or at least engaging in questionable play? Doesn't that throw a false positive into any compilation of events?
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