Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 27, 2017 18:08:01 GMT
Don't get tied up in the exact numbers, it was a quick approximation. The point is that a model worth about 1.1 points has that much chance to kill a model costing 3 times that at 3.2, with a much higher native threat range. Sanguine bond will save the bastion, sure, but the concept most people have in their heads for defensive heavy infantry suggests that it shouldn't have to, that at the very least you want to force them to get a second one in there to force a defensive ability. Compare the chances of that same steelhead killing a MOW, even a bombardier. Or a skinwalker. or a piggyback. A champion. We pay as much for ours, but are taken out comparatively easily and the offense is....not making up the difference.
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Post by paradox on Jul 27, 2017 18:13:51 GMT
Don't get tied up in the exact numbers, it was a quick approximation. The point is that a model worth about 1.1 points has that much chance to kill a model costing 3 times that at 3.2, with a much higher native threat range. Sanguine bond will save the bastion, sure, but the concept most people have in their heads for defensive heavy infantry suggests that it shouldn't have to, that at the very least you want to force them to get a second one in there to force a defensive ability. Compare the chances of that same steelhead killing a MOW, even a bombardier. Or a skinwalker. or a piggyback. A champion. We pay as much for ours, but are taken out comparatively easily and the offense is....not making up the difference. If we can agree its 2.2 pts vs 3.2 pts, Im with you. Bastions definitely need something more. The question is how much more. The more I look at +1 ARM, +1 wound, the better I like it. Along with changes to the bond, and maybe tossing in tough, they start looking workable.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jul 27, 2017 18:19:01 GMT
I still think bastions need defensive strike. It makes it so that steel head is much less likely to kill your bastion cause they die first. Or let's say they trow a beast in there to kill 3 guys. 3 weapon master attacks will really make it so that the thing they trew in gets punished for even trying. Its also sufficiently easy to fluff explain it away
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 27, 2017 18:20:55 GMT
Don't get tied up in the exact numbers, it was a quick approximation. The point is that a model worth about 1.1 points has that much chance to kill a model costing 3 times that at 3.2, with a much higher native threat range. Sanguine bond will save the bastion, sure, but the concept most people have in their heads for defensive heavy infantry suggests that it shouldn't have to, that at the very least you want to force them to get a second one in there to force a defensive ability. Compare the chances of that same steelhead killing a MOW, even a bombardier. Or a skinwalker. or a piggyback. A champion. We pay as much for ours, but are taken out comparatively easily and the offense is....not making up the difference. If we can agree its 2.2 pts vs 3.2 pts, Im with you. Bastions definitely need something more. The question is how much more. The more I look at +1 ARM, +1 wound, the better I like it. Along with changes to the bond, and maybe tossing in tough, they start looking workable. Gotta be honest, I am simply not a fan of tough in our armies. I realize it's great mechanically, but it's something people are already teching for. I want something that people really have to play around, rather than just "apply my grievous models". It also doesn't feel like a theme of exemplar to me. If +1 ARM and wound isn't enough, I'd prefer something like retaliatory than tough.
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Post by paradox on Jul 27, 2017 18:23:33 GMT
I still think bastions need defensive strike. It makes it so that steel head is much less likely to kill your bastion cause they die first. Or let's say they trow a beast in there to kill 3 guys. 3 weapon master attacks will really make it so that the thing they trew in gets punished for even trying. Its also sufficiently easy to fluff explain it away This makes alot of sense too. I think PP is pretty clear itd like to emphsize the defensive nature of bastions to leave room for offense on cinerators.
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Post by Swampmist on Jul 27, 2017 18:33:58 GMT
As we've seen with Champs, even just an 8-box ua can go a long way to making sanguine bond better. So, the current question: what needs to change on bastions? Do they not do enough damage? Are they not tanky enough? Do we want them to brick up, or take advantage of the changes to Sanguine and look to let them spread out more (I'm partial to this idea, to differentiate them from champs.)
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 27, 2017 18:41:32 GMT
As we've seen with Champs, even just an 8-box ua can go a long way to making sanguine bond better. So, the current question: what needs to change on bastions? Do they not do enough damage? Are they not tanky enough? Do we want them to brick up, or take advantage of the changes to Sanguine and look to let them spread out more (I'm partial to this idea, to differentiate them from champs.) With their slow medium bases, I personally would probably use them like I do cinerators and keep them close: if SB had been reduced to 5" and not 3", I wouldn't have really noticed. Otherwise I get them in the way of my other stuff.
As blessed weaponmasters with an explicitly stated defensive focus, their damage is fine. Once they're stuck in, enemies are dying, charge bonuses are gone, and the senny is healing them, attrition can start to take over. Anyone that wants them can help them shrug off shooting. We just need a better way of surviving that charge. Minifeat defensive strike, +1 arm and box, carapace except vs charges, or something else, independent of caster, that helps them live for that one critical turn.
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Post by paradox on Jul 27, 2017 18:42:23 GMT
I most like: CID bond, +1 ARM/wound, defensive strike. For 10/16, in context of most lists, I think this would make a great unit. Consider a list where they are 2nd line zone holders and a counter charge piece (not the ability, the role ). Perhaps with a senny and reclaimer. Reclaimer has souls from frontline deaths. Can AV a bastion. They can take a buff like DW etc. potentially 17/19 6 wounds vs charges, with MAT7 PS12WM Blessed Magic defensive strikes. Thats hellastrong.
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Post by streetpizza on Jul 27, 2017 18:48:50 GMT
At present, a charging steelhead is effective MAT7 PS11. Bastions are effective DEF13 ARM16 5 wounds. Steelhead needs 6 to hit 10 to kill, assuming SB isnt used. Combined about a 50/50 chance, assuming youre unwilling to use the bond. So really you need at least 2 SHs not using CMA to get an average dice kill. Technically 45.125% chance. FYI. Technically correct is the best kind of correct.
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Post by greytemplar on Jul 27, 2017 19:06:01 GMT
Defensive Strike would definitely help their issues with basic infantry killing them too easily. They'd at least get a swing in first and cut down the odds. And a charging heavy would have to think about taking 3ish weapon master slaps before hope got to attack.
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Post by chillychinaman on Jul 27, 2017 19:21:01 GMT
Technically 45.125% chance. FYI. Technically correct is the best kind of correct. Which goes to show how bad Bastions are when a model 1/3 their cost has almost a 50/50 shot at killing them outright from outside their charge range.
As others have brought up Defensive Strike would be great if Impervious Flesh isn't what people want. Back in Mk2 I would've been skeptical about giving a unit the rule, but ever since Warders got Shield Guard, the Ellowyr Swordsmen UA, and the Crabbits, appeared, I wouldn't be too surprised to see it happen.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 27, 2017 19:30:12 GMT
Technically correct is the best kind of correct. Which goes to show how bad Bastions are when a model 1/3 their cost has almost a 50/50 shot at killing them outright from outside their charge range.
As others have brought up Defensive Strike would be great if Impervious Flesh isn't what people want. Back in Mk2 I would've been skeptical about giving a unit the rule, but ever since Warders got Shield Guard, the Ellowyr Swordsmen UA, and the Crabbits, appeared, I wouldn't be too surprised to see it happen.
Impervious would be fantastic. Also, totally busted with sanguine bond and access to their Seneschal, Vessel, Vindictus feat, Martyrdom, Defender's Ward, etc.
Don't set your sights on it, it'll never happen and just convince PP that we want our stuff overbuffed to infinity.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jul 27, 2017 19:35:32 GMT
Which goes to show how bad Bastions are when a model 1/3 their cost has almost a 50/50 shot at killing them outright from outside their charge range. [/p][/quote] Regardless of how bad or good bastions are, that's corrupt reasoning. Units have different costs and are effective under different circumstances.
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Post by chillychinaman on Jul 27, 2017 19:52:55 GMT
ProvengreilI meant to say that I wouldn't be surprised to see Bastions gain Defensive Strike. I also meant for Impervious Flesh to replace Sanguine Bond. Finally, I think most things would be broken if you devoted 26pts, an upkeep and 2 casters abilities to them, but what do I know? @rowdy Dragon Fair point, but it is jarring, when the slower, more expensive, designed to be tough model's life expectancy is basically a coin toss when compared to what in fluff is a basically trained sellsword. I know comparing models in a vacuum is usually a bad idea, but when you look at the big picture, it goes to show how far the ball dropped when PP was updating Bastions.
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blakeh1
Junior Strategist
Posts: 181
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Post by blakeh1 on Jul 27, 2017 19:56:46 GMT
I most like: CID bond, +1 ARM/wound, defensive strike. For 10/16, in context of most lists, I think this would make a great unit. Consider a list where they are 2nd line zone holders and a counter charge piece (not the ability, the role ). Perhaps with a senny and reclaimer. Reclaimer has souls from frontline deaths. Can AV a bastion. They can take a buff like DW etc. potentially 17/19 6 wounds vs charges, with MAT7 PS12WM Blessed Magic defensive strikes. Thats hellastrong. I would start playing them again Not an auto include in very list, but back to being solid contenders
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