How to beat a defensive Circle?

Circle is a tough nut for Legion these days. Gone are the halcyon days of Vayl1 with a functional feat and a full spell list...

You haven't faced Baldur2 Woldwrath yet, though, and I feel like that's probably one of the most challenging matchups for Legion right now.

• Absylonia1 struggles from her feat getting mostly ignored (if not entirely), although auto-boosted melee vs Circle beasts is nice; her upkeep-dependence vs Woldwyrds is a death sentence.
  
• Rhyas1 will be under greater threat than she's comfortable with, between ignoring DEF and threat extenders she's in a tough spot, and you really need some range to keep Circle honest - something she's not usually built with.
• Kryssa could get some work done under feat, but relies heavily on the feat alone, so it could be tough to execute because of their threat extension and trivial infantry removal options.
• Lylyth1 I wouldn't recommend into Circle because of their anti-spell tech, shield guards, and superior shooting.
• Fyanna2 has a lot of game, but any hit fixing (that damned dog) or really serious ARM stacking (Baldur2) can be rough; you really only want to run her in Oracles with the flight spam into Circle at this point.

General thoughts:

• I'd recommend some shooting to keep them honest - particularly eyeless sight to pop their Sentry Stones; they really don't like their support pieces getting messed with.
  
• Always break at least one stone in each Shifting Stone unit, when you have the opportunity.
  
• Keep threat on their casters – it's one of their biggest weaknesses, and it can help control the field.
  
• You're not going to win an attrition fight with Circle, so avoid such confrontations, and focus on killing them on the way in or hitting with a really hard alpha strike.
  
• Sometimes the best way to damage their beasts is through the caster transferring damage.
  
• Flanking models can give Circle some of its own medicine, but be careful about engaging on their terms – harass and back off.
  
• Infantry is generally not going to fare well into Circle, unless it's stealth or very quick and can avoid direct confrontation.
  
• Circle runs a lot of synergy, and whittling that down before you commit to confrontation will go a long way.

So far the only Defense tech I've found troubling is Kaya 2's boomerang feat.

Always bring a beast or two with a gun. Eyeless sight ruins Circle's day. Also, look for accuracy over damage output. Arm17 is easy to kill if you can actually hit. Lylyth's feat is unfortunately the best thing you have access to. Other wise; Seraph for flare (or maybe just always have a Seraph). Bolthrowers fit the previously mentioned gun need and a good push or a crit knockdown can change the engagement entirely (Always boost to hit).

Azrael is also an amazing tool for the same reason. In Theme or not.

Zuriel under Abby 1 makes a solid impact. Forced evo bring him up to desired Pow and Def 15. Just don't let him get knocked down (It's much harder than it sounds).

Lastly, and this applies to every game, mind threat ranges. Never feel like you have to move up just for the sake of moving. Circle heavies oddly enough lack Pathfinder (most). With slipstream we can easily dance outside their melee threat and choose when to engage.

I'm playing so many things, like a new caster every 2 weeks...

I'm amazed at how good Reeves are, and the synergy with war dogs is absurd.
previously I was abusing the hell out of mannikins, but right now I'm all about woldwyrds and the Fulcrum.
I'm also playing a lot with scarsfel griffons, spamming 5-6 with Una2 or Kaya3, but often just taking 2 with say Mohsar, Wurmy or Tanith.

I'm busy painting up the Baldurs, so I'll see what they have to offer soon, but I don't have great hopes for the Wolds.

-und_ed

Ridiculously enough, I find I outshoot Legion most of the time unless I'm facing a dedicated Legion gunline (LylyX usually).

Terrible ARM Legion beasts really do not like being double-tapped by Reeves at all, and Sentry stones shut down so much of the shooting potential at hard targets from the Legion side. Straight beast Vs beast Circle is just stronger every time as well - I'll take a warpwold over a Carni / Scythean / Angel any day, and even the much maligned budget heavy, the Riphorn Satyr easily outperforms the Neraph. Fun fact - if you know it's a throwaway trade and you're prepared to primal him, the Riphorn satyr outperforms a Scythean into hard targets. I haven't run the numbers, but I expect he outperforms a Carni as well. And this is a warbeast that the circle community feels is so bad as to be unplayable...

Then of course there is the Scarsfell griffon, who with any caster with a dmg buff just performs so far above its weight class it's just obscene.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Legion and they have treated me very well (I was playing lots and lots and lots of twins for about 5 months, and even won our local nationals event with them) but moving to Circle I experienced what can only be described as a power rush. Circle beasts are just straight-up better than Legion equivalents imo, circle infantry is much better than Legion infantry, although Circle have nothing to compete with the awesome of the Seraph, that benefit is purely for the blight.

-und_ed

So, basically what I'm gathering is I just don't even need to bother playing against Circle, because I'll lose every time because they're either A. Anti-Legion or B. Just a more powerful faction.

I didn't want to unnecessarily disagree with anything "unded" said, but I do have a bit of a different view than he says. As I stated earlier, I am in the opposite situation as unded where I used to play exclusively Circle and now play primarily Legion. I haven't won any major tournaments, however, I have won 3 local tournaments with my Circle with 10 to 16 ish players (in what I would describe as a very competitive meta). Given that I have only played the game for about a year and a half and that I have only been in about 8 tournaments I would say that isn't bad. My point in mentioning this is that I feel I am reasonable qualified to speak from both points of view.

Personally, I feel Circle and Legion are both very powerful, but I do still feel Legion has an edge against Circle. While Legion beasts are Fragile, we will still out threaten Circle in most cases, and outside of reeves / woldwyrds / bloodtrackers, we should out shoot them. Sure Circle has Sentry stones, but I have a hard time understanding how a Circle player can keep those safe while also threatening with their mannikins (Legion has eyeless sight and oftentimes packs high strength shooting which can quickly take sentry stones out).

Fyanna def skew can be very tricky to deal with as a Circle player unless you bring a barking dog (argus), but I don't see those being popular in many Circle lists. Any Lylyth army can also be tricky to deal with for a Circle player as the ranged threat projection is difficult to deal with when stealth won't help. I would also mention that Raptors can be a nightmare to deal with as they can do significant damage to any non stealthed living Circle heavy, and they can then reposition to stay 100% safe. They can also be stealthed in several lists that like taking them due to occultation. I might also mention that Circle only has 2 pathfinder living heavies (stalker and pureblood, but the pureblood has to warp ghostly). This means that difficult terrain can actually be a bit of a nightmare for some Circle lists. Sure, all the infantry moves easily through terrain, but outside the 2 above beasts Circle cannot get pathfinder unless they use Kaya2 and dogpile something. Legion has pathfinder across the board (outside typhon), so you can use this to your advantage as well.

The big problems I would foresee as a Legion player coming from Circle would be Baldur2 double WoldWrath. Armour 23 with sacred ward is really tricky to deal with, although wraithbane can help. Also Wurmwood is still really solid, and even with Pathfinder his feat and control potential is very real.

With all that being said, I feel like Legion is in a great spot and I wouldn't feel bad playing them into Circle at all.

This post plus the initial one reeks of frustration. It's a human emotion so nothing wrong with it per se, and many WMH players bump into this "skill ceiling" at some point, but in my experience it doesn't help to win games. So you might not want to bother as long as you're not over this feeling. Fokus on playing against other factions and/or players for now, learn more about the game and factions, and return to the tough matchups later.



There already are some really good points in this thread about Legion vs. Circle, but in the end there's no ultimate truth, as you still have to play the games yourself. My personal experience is that Baldur + Wolds is a very, very bad matchup for us, but everything else is beatable. In the hands of a trained Circle player it often is still a hard game. It also is hard to give general advise, imho Circle is a faction you have to be able to play flexible against, as many of their list are quite flexible themselves, which takes practice. Maybe we can give you some more specific tipps if you posts full lists and idealy short battle reports?