martini
Junior Strategist
Posts: 119
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Post by martini on Jul 25, 2017 11:37:27 GMT
Looking at Mulg in Cid I started wondering in what direction should Avatar go.
Costs more, do more? Like 24pts warmonster overload. Costs less, do same? Like 18. Costs same, modify actual rules to be a little bit better? Immunity disruption, d3+2 focus.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 25, 2017 12:27:26 GMT
He needs to do more. The statline is nice and all, but the simple fact is that it ignores what your caster is doing and that's just not how the game is played. They can't fix that ruleset with point reduction, it'll either be too many points for a non-BG model or too few points to ever skip taking. He needs several new rules.
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moquan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 193
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Post by moquan on Jul 25, 2017 12:59:31 GMT
Well if you take a Templar for example, remove its special rules (chain weapon, shield guard, beatback) and for the sake of argument assign 1 point to those abilities, the templar would be 12 points. If we then add everything the Avatar does you can see why it is 20 points, 9 extra things on top of the naked Templar.
Shield: - +1 P+S - Magical
Sword: - +2 P+S - Magical - Flame Burst
- Gaze - Sacred Ward - Focus independency and potential for 4 focus - +2 MAT
And you don't have to agree ofcourse, and all these abilities are not worth precisely one point, but we do not know how PP grades abilities.
The Avatar is good when you want more jacks than you have WJ points for and it doesn't matter if it's in your battlegroup or not. It's niche, but character jacks should not be a copy paste into every list, again, my opinion.
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Post by blydz on Jul 25, 2017 14:30:04 GMT
For 20 points, now, we have the Eye of Truth. Wich have pretty much the same stats line, can benefit from all the battlegroup spells and feats, and can do more than the Avatar.
At the current state, the Avatar should cost less.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jul 25, 2017 14:52:42 GMT
17 or 18 points and I'd be happy with the current avatar 18 points and immunity disruption and is be very happy
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Post by gargs454 on Jul 25, 2017 15:41:12 GMT
For 20 points, now, we have the Eye of Truth. Wich have pretty much the same stats line, can benefit from all the battlegroup spells and feats, and can do more than the Avatar. At the current state, the Avatar should cost less. I think this is the part of the equation that PP often misses. Its not that the Avatar is bad per se. I mean it does get work done. Its just that for the points, there are better options. I think PP often misses the big picture when looking at models. Its sort of like Errants. I don't think Errants are garbage per se, its just why would you take Errants when you could take Idrians instead?
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Miafan
Junior Strategist
Eater of Brains
Posts: 130
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Post by Miafan on Jul 25, 2017 16:00:21 GMT
And considering how deeply PP cares about Protectorate, in this case they are more likely to make EoT more expensive and state that it should give Avatar more play.
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Post by Manathern on Jul 25, 2017 16:39:37 GMT
Same price, maybe a bit cheaper. Bring back immunity to disruption (maybe fire even) and clarify/upgrade Menoth Gaze.
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blakeh1
Junior Strategist
Posts: 181
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Post by blakeh1 on Jul 25, 2017 16:41:37 GMT
The problem is they put too much stock in certain abilities being used which drives the point cost up, when in fact those abilities are often rarely relevant in most games
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Post by WantonRanger on Jul 25, 2017 17:00:17 GMT
The problem is they put too much stock in certain abilities being used which drives the point cost up, when in fact those abilities are often rarely relevant in most games This all the time... they overvalue janky stuff that rarely plays a strong part in the games...
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 25, 2017 17:00:36 GMT
The problem is they put too much stock in certain abilities being used which drives the point cost up, when in fact those abilities are often rarely relevant in most games I agree, and I suspect the reason we feel squashed right now is that we pack a ot of said abilities. The trolls give me hope right now though: PP is making their faction legitimately tough again, realizing that they've given out too many offensive toys and the defensive ones need to be better.
I just wish they'd hurry up with the Menoth CID instead of showing us just how long the wait will be.
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Post by paradox on Jul 25, 2017 17:02:37 GMT
What if Avatar were disruption immune, and Gaze required directly toward? 21-22pts?
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Post by blydz on Jul 25, 2017 17:49:46 GMT
And considering how deeply PP cares about Protectorate, in this case they are more likely to make EoT more expensive and state that it should give Avatar more play. That would be particularly petty and would'nt help at all in the diversity of our lists options. Today the Avatar is not a model that we see a lot (less than in MkII), and considering that 20 points for what the Avatar can do is really expensive, increasing the price of the EoT, could provoke the same result for him. If we are all in aggreement that today the Avatar should cost less, we can expect at least Disruption Immune for 20 pts (more will certainly be christmas ) That's a price that I will pay if the Avatar cannot be disrupted anymore (after all, he has no cortex....)
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 25, 2017 17:50:57 GMT
What if Avatar were disruption immune, and Gaze required directly toward? 21-22pts? While we're making wishes, give him a pony!
Honestly, my preferred change to Gaze would be changing begins to enters.
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Post by paradox on Jul 25, 2017 17:52:02 GMT
What if Avatar were disruption immune, and Gaze required directly toward? 21-22pts? While we're making wishes, give him a pony!
Honestly, my preferred change to Gaze would be changing begins to enters.
I mean, the thread title IS "what if?"
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