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Post by babadook on Jul 25, 2017 7:02:27 GMT
unded Have you considered adding Annyssa Rhyvaal, min. Raptors and drop one Spell Martyr? I think this would be something to tweak the list a little. Advantages: - Easiert scenario control with a min. unit of Raptors - The min. unit is hitting better and Annyssa shots good enough to compensate for the loss of the 2 Raptors - An additional Solo for scoring Disadvantages: - One less Spell Martyr - ? - ?
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Jul 25, 2017 9:23:42 GMT
I'd be very loathe to drop the raptors to a min unit.
The shooting is mostly harrassment in the list, but their real value tends to come more in the punch offered by fast, pathfinder weaponmasters who are benefitting from the blightbringer's buff.
That being said, Anyssa is really tempting. I just can't justify her when I only hvae 19 points to play with in my standard setup. For the same price I can bring a min unit of swordsmen.
To me the big value of the list is that you have a wide variety of targets you can play into. By removing weaponmasters you make it much harder to play into box spam. Honestly I have the same problem in most of my lists when I try to include Anyssa - I want the versatility of shooting plus weaponmasters, and can never justify her as it skews the unit hard towards shooting.
-und_ed
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Post by dxman on Jul 25, 2017 13:55:58 GMT
I've found Annyssa's main value comes in when facing cavalry or other other relatively mobile multi-box models. Don't forget that her impact attacks also benefit from Prey. She loves Wraithbane, too.
You definitely need to make sure your bases are covered when it comes to jacks first, though.
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Post by Cheesebeard on Jul 25, 2017 22:16:26 GMT
Annyssa is a luxury, and less enticing now that Stormlances have fallen out of favor for Haley2 Heavy Metal.
I really like the WE&SJ package, and generally haven't found any Twins lists that I like in theme.
This has been my most successful Twins list:
Saeryn & Rhyas, Talons of Everblight - WB: +24 - Saeryn & Rhyas, Talons of Everblight (Cont.) - Seraph - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - Zuriel - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10) - Nephilim Protector - PC: 10 - Naga Nightlurker - PC: 8 - Raek - PC: 8 Wrong Eye - Wrong Eye & Snapjaw: 17 - Snapjaw Blighted Nyss Sorceress & Hellion - PC: 6 Annyssa Ryvaal - PC: 8 Strider Deathstalker - PC: 4 Strider Deathstalker - PC: 4 Blighted Nyss Shepherd - PC: 1 Spell Martyr - PC: 1
Moving it to Oracles would mean I could swap the Blightbringer in for WE&SJ (17) + Annyssa (8) + 2 Deathstalkers (8) and a free S&H (6) (total = 39 and two more freebies), but I don't feel like that's a reasonable trade in most circumstances... Maybe the new theme might end up looking better for a Blightbringer build. Ravens can get you everything but WE&SJ and the Shepherd, but I don't feel like it provides anything to fill the gap left by WE&SJ, even though Raptors can be annoying with Occultation they're not reliable. CotD doesn't feel like a great option because you lose so much.
I really like the Twins, but they got hit with a lot of quality of life nerfs that have made them a bit aggravating to play (damaging each other, loss of tenacity, no charging each other, Marked for Death losing LoS component, can't upkeep a spell on each), so they're shelved for the time being – I'm content to wait until some new stuff releases and Legion hits CID, and see how that affects them. Golab looks promising and may be allowed in a theme, and the possibility of WE&SJ in themes could make them a lot more competitive. More than anything, I'd like to see their ability to transfer to each other brought back along with removing the shackle on hurting one another... I mean, what other caster in the game can lose their feat entirely from a poor spell redirect or deviation? It's pretty ridiculous (especially when you compare Haley3's design).
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Post by yourmumrang on Jul 26, 2017 10:57:20 GMT
Have considered using Blightbades over min Swords and a Martyr?
Have found ambush a lot more useful for contesting and their CMA with Blighty could be good as well as potential crit grievous.
I have played a Ravens version that is interesting...
Twins Ravens Zuriel Angelius Seraph Protector Deathstalker x2 Max Raptors Max Grotesque Raiders Blightbades
Does a shit ton of infantry removal. Denies AD. I think it is an interesting scenario list...
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Jul 26, 2017 13:17:11 GMT
Ravens is missing goold old blighty, which hurts me inside.
Gotta say I'm really intrigued by the idea of blightblades instead of swordies. They're serving the same purpose (providing an alternate front that means Rhyas isn't required to be up front if it's inconvenient). The obvious trade-offs are less anti-heavy ability and nothing on your own side you halt the enemy advance, but its interesting enough that when I get back to Legion I'll certainly give 'em a try. Actually a pretty exciting idea, and one that if you want to play non-blighty could combo very well with wrong-eye and snappy.
-und_ed
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Post by yourmumrang on Jul 29, 2017 10:30:05 GMT
I also came up against this list at ETC which was interesting...
Twins Blighty Zuriel Seraph Protector Max Hex Hunters with Bayal Hellion x2 Shepherd x3 Spell Martyr
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Post by Falcen on Aug 20, 2017 23:28:17 GMT
unded I wonder about two questions. One: do you already feel SR2017 pushes some changes in the list? It has a good variety of model types, but has the change in scenario scoring made the list easier or more difficult to play? Two: If a Naga shall be included, what would you drop? Your list is so fully packed with important choices, I have a hard time seeing anything expendable.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Aug 21, 2017 6:31:34 GMT
Heya Falcen.
It's hard to really say, since I've been playing Circle for the last 3 months. The variety of unit types, plus the ability to put Rhyas in places most warcasters would fear to tread means I'm pretty comfortable with the list as-is playing into all the scenarios, but take it with a grain of untested salt. Basically the only struggle would normally be claiming rectangular (beast) zones, but Rhyas herself can do it relatively safely without hurting her game-plan.
The Naga is a contentious one. My last big tournament I regretted including the Naga every single game but the finals, although you could make a strong case that if I needed it in the finals (and I did against Xerxes) then it was worth the price. After the base 80 points in the list, the Naga left me on 11, which then let me put in a min unit of swordies (9), plus a single shepherd and a martyr.
If I dropped the Naga, I'd replace it with a Hellmouth and a second Martyr + shepherd. The Hellmouth is great against monsters like Rahn with pulls and reliable slam-tech (you telegraph yourself a bit, but you use the Hellmouth as a bunker to hide behind and prevent anything slamming into Rhyas), not to mention an occultated Hellmouth is just fantastic (and trolly). The second martyr and shepherd are shockingly useful as well. Blighty takes a lot of transfer pain over the course of a game, so double-heal is very useful. the second martyr is rarely used to channel, but often ends up a target beacon for blighty's aura, especially useful when facing lots of shield guards (Convergence comes to mind, plus most of Menoth).
It's a really tough choice to be honest, and depends on what scares you most in your meta. The Naga variant plays better into Cygnar (my personal hatred) and Menoth, while the Hellmouth variant plays better into virtually everything else.
-und_ed
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Post by Falcen on Aug 21, 2017 15:57:02 GMT
It's hard to really say, since I've been playing Circle for the last 3 months. What a shame! It's a really tough choice to be honest, and depends on what scares you most in your meta. The Naga variant plays better into Cygnar (my personal hatred) and Menoth, while the Hellmouth variant plays better into virtually everything else. Helpful tips, guess I'll try without one for now. Thanks for the feedback!
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Post by yourmumrang on Aug 21, 2017 17:10:59 GMT
I'm looking at something along the lines of the following as a third list...
Twins Ravens:
Twins Zuriel Seraph Naga Protector Deathstalker x2 Anyssa Grotesque Assassin Forsaken (free) Strider Scout & UA Grotesque Raiders
Spams a lot of stealth and removes a lot of infantry...
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whydak
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by whydak on Aug 21, 2017 17:58:51 GMT
I'm looking at something along the lines of the following as a third list... Twins Ravens: Twins Zuriel Seraph Naga Protector Deathstalker x2 Anyssa Grotesque Assassin Forsaken (free) Strider Scout & UA Grotesque Raiders Spams a lot of stealth and removes a lot of infantry... Can I ask why you changed your list from blightblades/raptors/riders variant? I'm still playtesting it and I'm curious of your thougts. If I remember correctly you posted exactly the same list I'm using I'm trygin to sneak in Naga and more solos for scenario but I can't find points.
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Post by yourmumrang on Aug 21, 2017 19:28:09 GMT
Honestly? No reason other than wanting a change.
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aedeeg
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 5
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Post by aedeeg on Aug 22, 2017 21:33:47 GMT
So for you that are running the Twins, What are you pairing them with and what are you dropping them into?
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Aug 23, 2017 6:30:24 GMT
I like them dropped into almost anything (my generalist list), and I bring something that can play into hard gunlines (like Sloan) as a pairing.
Lylyth3 works well (although I find her just as boring as old MKII Lylyth2, so I tend to avoid her) and obviously Fyanna2 Oracles is a great second list.
-und_ed
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