demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Jul 22, 2017 18:19:50 GMT
I was taking another look through our casters while trying to find an answer to the issue of us only really having 2 choices in lists, armor spam or fire spam. Then I came across Reznik1 and wondered why he isn't played more often, especially in a meta over run by upkeep spells and channeling. Sure, we have plenty of casters that can deal with upkeep spells rather easily, both buff and debuffs, and have answers for channeling, but Reznik1 really gives us a whole lot more.
First, the basics, 14 def, 17 arm, 17 boxes, 6 fury, decent mat with his weapon that is already PS 14 and magical. He also has plenty of WJ points to help fill out his lists. He also has 2 really interesting side affects and a weapon buff. First you have Excrutiator which allows you to turn destroyed opponents into wracks x.x, then Witch Hound, which lets a model in your battlegroup move 3 inches and get a free melee attack every time a spell is cast on a battlegroup model! His weapon, that's already at PS 14 magical, also gains an additional di on both attack and damage rolls against enemies under the affect of upkeep spells and animi.
His spell list is also very complimentary to his design, allowing you to target enemies for death and advance deeper into enemy territory even when it's not your turn. Regardless of cost, he's putting up wracks all over the board to siphon additional focus off of. His feat is also just plain hell to hordes and really nerfs warmachine as well. The fact that even if you want to recast an upkeep spell puts you under continuous fire will also quickly mute the delicate casters. Even worse, with engine of destruction, he becomes a walking boomstick as a focus 6 (rejuvy from the wracks after casting engine of destruction and using feat), speed 7, PS 18, mat 11 that gets a free di on a caster under the protection of an upkeep spell x.x He could kill a colossal with that kind of combo! but even better, his feat also leaves casters completely vulnerable!
So how come I don't see many lists with him? It seems everyone tends to aim for Sevy, Amon, malekus, and high reclaimer, yet even high reclaimer is fallen out of favor and, with the increase of fire immunity, malekus has also seen a wane in use. Why is everyone grabbing for Sevy and Amon when Reznik1 has plenty of punching power to crack armor and penetrate through infantry spams?
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thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
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Post by thelat on Jul 22, 2017 19:22:28 GMT
Reznik1 kills things like no one else in the faction. That said, when Reznik goes in, you need to win that turn or you will lose, unless you're willing to run Vengers just to run in and shield him from retribution. Generally speaking, your armies will be Reznik delivery systems, either for Reznik to personally end things with his feat and Engine Of Destruction or tagging something with Brand Of Heresy and having the Reckoners and Redeemers tear it apart.
You'll often find that Reznik's abilities (Witch Hound, Purgation) function more to stop players from using them instead of fizzling the abilities or making it blow up in their faces. This is still good, but people only fall for a Reckoner to the face from Witch Hound once.
Perdition is a spell that sounds good on paper, but it starts to get taxing, because he's only Focus 6 and your battle plans hinge on it, so always assume it costs 3 because you're going to boost to hit. You will also need to damage to trigger the movement and it's only POW 10. You'll need to keep Reznik safe after a Perdition cast, because you'll need to load up the warjack with 2 focus. This is best done with a Revenger, so, the maneuver starts to get expensive, fast. Reclaimers, Vassals, Wracks, and the Heirophant all ease the burden, but support bloat starts to be a thing with him.
The main problems with Reznik is that he offers no defense or movement buffs, and Brand of Heresy is battlegroup warjacks only, which requires some careful list construction for a Focus 6 warcaster.
All that said, Reznik is my favorite. Scourge's bond ability is very nice with him.
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Provengreil
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 22, 2017 19:26:55 GMT
I've played him for about a month straight and the answer is quite simple:
He's focus 6 but wants to be focus 11. Witch hound, perdition, and BOH suggest a battlegroup, but focus 6 asks who fuels it? 2 offensive spells need accuracy, and focus 6 isn't special. His statline, weapon, model, ignite, wrack ability, and engine all scream melee....but he's not actually all that durable so you aren't surviving anything you don't lay waste to since you burned a lot of focus doing it. He wants scourge, but also at least one arc node, probably 2, brand uses gunlines well, etc. He just pulls in too many directions at once and needs a better focus.
Also, his feat isn't as powerful as it should be. Denying warjack allocation does NOT stop powerup, and into hordes it can actually threaten to help them. It's good for assassination runs but he, with such low focus, lacks the reliability to get a fully loaded warjack up there. Lighting casters on fire....I'll take it I guess, but without an immediate penalty for casting the spell it gives my enemy full abilities on his own turn anyway, whereas severius 1 does this better at what feels like twice the range.
Now as for what DOES work well with him: Vanquishers take on a new significance with witch hound. His bond with scourge of heresy makes him Menoth's Strakhov, which is even worse because at least when fighting Khador you can usually assume one of the jacks will score a speed spell anyway.
Not owning a SoH model, the list I was running him with is currently:
Reznik 1, Exemplar Interdiction -Devout -Reckoner -Sanctifier -Redeemer -Revenger -Dervish Reclaimer solo, free Vassal 2X Wrack Mechanic Choir, Max Choir, Min Max Errants W/UA
Since focus efficiency is pretty much the name of the game on him, The vassal follows the reckoner for fully boosted shots. the extra choirboys get shivved turn 1 for souls, which then fuel future sight in the hopes of saving some focus. the dervish is used as a perdition/ignite target to walk it in for good effect. the errants give him 20 points no one has to fuel(and in fact fuel the sanctifier) that can be immune to spells for a turn, thus denying the opponent a non-bg use for them. In the meantime, between blessed everywhere and purgation, the enemy is denied a LOT of good defensive upkeeps.
This list has been through a few evolutions now, but the above seems to be the best I can get under this theory. If I had Scourge of Heresy, I'd probably pull the sanctifier and 2 choirboys for it.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jul 22, 2017 19:32:41 GMT
I used to love reznik. But i think he suffers from the problem that other casters have shinier toys to play with. He's fun to play with but also not very straightforward. Like casting brand of heresy on the enemy puts him in the danger Zone and he's not as survivalble as you'd expect. He also has so little focus but so much he wants to do with it But he is a very good haley /telekinesis drop ship I'm surprised you don't see him more often.
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Provengreil
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 22, 2017 19:39:59 GMT
I used to love reznik. But i think he suffers from the problem that other casters have shinier toys to play with. He's fun to play with but also not very straightforward. Like casting brand of heresy on the enemy puts him in the danger Zone and he's not as survivalble as you'd expect. He also has so little focus but so much he wants to do with it But he is a very good haley /telekinesis drop ship I'm surprised you don't see him more often. It's probably meta dependent, honestly. He can play without much handicap into most cygnar and works better than you'd expect into cryx (low ARM values are food for perdition combos, plus they like to debuff their targets), but isn't likely to handle Mercs, Khador, Minions, Skorne, Convergence, Trolls, Legion, or Menoth very well, which is quite the load for the other caster. I want to use him next tournament, I think Amon can pull the rest off.
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Post by paradox on Jul 22, 2017 19:47:27 GMT
Id recommend a gunline BG, with some troop screen and support. Rez lands BoH on the target you want to eliminate, guns do the work. Hes better into WM and ARM spam than swarms. If an opposing caster or warlock stumbles within 12", EoD FTW. He can be vulnerable, and melee without winning the game is a trap, but BoH is fantastic BG support.
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demonic
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Post by demonic on Jul 22, 2017 22:23:14 GMT
only people who don't play hordes would ever think that his feat could help them x.O;
Hordes fury management is precise, you can never have too much or too little, otherwise you'll suffer severe backlash. Horde warlocks do not just automatically get fury like with warcasters and focus points; they can only receive it from their beasts, meaning no fury on their beasts = no fury for their lock. However, their beasts can produce up to their fury cap by the end of the turn, (why power-up came into existence) whatever is not taken by the lock during their next management phase then increases the likeliness of the beasts to frenzy and go out of control. However, casting, boosting, transfering damage, and upkeeping is all based on fury. Empty the board of fury and you make their lock a sitting duck and force them to full on attack with their beasts to try and gain enough back. This also becomes extremely important with casters like Mordikaar from Skorne, who can use souls to mitigate additional fury during his turn; removing the fury from the board forces his hand earlier than he'd originally intend.
I haven't started playing with Reznik yet, but I'd think he would be much more viable against Mercs and Minions than you make it sound, as mercs and minions are specialists at being able to throw every fighting style and their mother into a list and still have it work. Reznik1 seems like a more solid caster and that is probably throwing people off. As a long time player of Skorne, we have been forced to use every caster in every situation in order to see which ones have the best winning averages; because of this, we've realized that casters that simply get stuff done have much higher win ratios than casters who only have a single play style. At the same time, I do believe that he'll need all 3 wracks and be using his Scourge of Heresy as well as a Devout or Vigilant to keep him out of trouble. So as far as pure support, the choir, Madelyn, the covenant, 3 wracks, and a vessal of menoth to keep the scourge of heresy's arcane vortex running. That's 18 points + SoH which is an easy include at 16 pts = 34. 28 wb pts later and you have 69 pts to spend on a front wall, some solos, and a smash face styled battlegroup.
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Post by paradox on Jul 22, 2017 22:31:00 GMT
At 14/17 medium base and CTRL12, its not hard for a warlock to keep a support or ranged beast out of reasonable threat range. Similar, Spirit Bind provides some relief if you've lost beasts already. It's far from impossible to sandbag against Rez1 if you know what he does.
You can gottcha a Hordes player, but if they know that trick?
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Provengreil
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 22, 2017 22:55:24 GMT
I'm sorry, but what? If a warlock doesn't get enough fury he can cut for what he needs, which he can safely do if the feat didn't kill him in the first place. Then the game continues as normal, with fresh beasts. Assuming reznik doesn't kill you, I don't understand how it hurts hordes.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
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Post by demonic on Jul 23, 2017 0:10:51 GMT
cut for fury x.x; which he can SAFELY do... then the game continues normally!?
Warbeasts, by rule, are nerfed versions of warjacks with an animus to make it up. Because of this, warlocks are heavily dependent on upkeep spells, even using their own fury to cast the animi of their beasts to simply equalize the brute force of warjacks. If there beasts have no fury to take before maintenance, all upkeeps expire, making it necessary to bring themselves back to full fury just to survive. This means taking 6-8 damage to their already wounded box count. On top of that, casting a spell or animus will put continuous fire on them. Cutting for fury is a last resort, not something you do just because you want too. You also don't have cheepo mechanics around to patch up the lock after he's been knocked around. It basically resets the game to the first round minus the starting fury, affecting the way they can position themselves and pull off their chain effects for 2 or 3 rounds. Remember, that first turn when the lock is still in danger, he can't max out the fury of any of the beasts around him, as you can't transfer damage to a beast that's maxed on fury, plus you still get hit by the recoil if the damage floods over on an xfer. You should ask a serious horde player how much of a detriment it is.
as for keeping a support beast back or keeping a ranged beast outside the range, most of hordes does not have that ability. Support beast animi are all either a single target within 6 inches or something like a 3 inch AoE. Even then, their maximum fury stat is maybe 3. Ranged beasts are generally inaccurate and must keep out of sight from combined range attacks.
The issue here is that the range of his feat is not 12 inches, it's a little over a 24 inch circle with him in the middle. This means when he is in a domination location he can shut down your entire force minus whatever you have crawling around the table edge.
Regardless of all that... my question was why people don't play him that often. The response I received was, in essence, "6 focus isn't enough." The question I tried to ask in return was "what if he has wracks out and is protected enough to play center board?" now your reply x.x
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Post by paradox on Jul 23, 2017 0:23:08 GMT
You cut before upkeeping. Cutting is leeching. Models are only set on fire if casting in Reznik's 12" CTRL. Again, more avoidable than you seem to believe.
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Provengreil
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 23, 2017 1:40:13 GMT
cut for fury x.x; which he can SAFELY do... then the game continues normally!? Reznik's caster kill threat is tied to the feat. Once that particular storm is over, you're good to go. HEAVILY debatable, and done so elsewhere. I do not agree at all. as stated, you cut before upkeeping. the cutting is an out to which warmachine has nbo equivalent, btw. Unlikely at best. Under Reznik, on feat turn, it's a Kill/Don't Kill thing. Not much in between with an angry Scourge of Heresy and no focus/fury. This whole chain of logic begins with a flawed assumption( you lose your upkeeps) and continues with whining about marking a few boxes of damage on your caster to function. You speak to a heavy user of the Harbinger: I play most of the game at 6 boxes. by not killing you but using Reznik's feat, it like giving the hordes player Nemo 1's feat: go ahead, go nuclear. I guarantee you something went so wrong for Reznik that you can remove either him, or his ability to win by maxing your fury. 6 inches to the target, then a base's width, then 5 or less to reznik. This sounds punishable and doable. at worst, it's a delayed POW 12 that Reznik can't boost or interact with. not much of a punishment to a warbeast. also, a battlegroup caster like Reznik is typically lacking in combined attacks. a Set of measurements well known for people wanting to make a control area sound much larger than it is. I cannot envision a realistic scenario that involves popping Reznik's feat and affecting models more than about 9 inches apart, and not winning immediately anyway. OK: wracks give 1 focus but don't fix spell accuracy. Then, he simply is NOT protected enough to play center of board reliably. It doesn't really work. Between what he needs for a barebones Reznik offense, and support for that, and secondary and/or supporting offense, plus a screen if possible, he cannot spare the 22 points and choirboys necessary for the devout/vigilant/tristan 1 fortress necessary for Menoth caster to live that far up. DEF 14 won't save him from a caster kill assault, those combos are ready for that. They have to consider cryx and cygnar. ARM 17 would, except for when he dumped his whole stack just to function(you know, like, pretty much every turn) and got one extra from that wrack we talked about. a wrack wall, should you manage to construct one, will block only 1 attack as they do not spawn with focus AFAIK and then the chain reaction goes off. 6 focus isn't all he has, Menoth is THE focus fixing faction. a Focus stat of 6, however, is extremely punishing to what he's trying to do.
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Post by paradox on Jul 23, 2017 1:45:28 GMT
In fairness, Rez can have 8 effective focus, and has both Ignite and EoD. Depending on upkeeps, he can swing 5-6 times at MAT11 PS20, potentially with Purgation if target has an upkeep. Skip Ignite for 1-2 more swings at PS18. Be can assassinate without the feat.
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Post by k0rhil on Jul 23, 2017 1:56:17 GMT
I find reznik 1 to be a riot to play especially in mk3. I do agree his list has quite a few "must haves" which I assume can turn people off in regards to those who enjoy freedom in list building. I personally enjoy 2 arc nodes, soh, at least one redeemer, a bodyguard jack a unit to screen the battle group and score in steamroller and support. Lately I've chosen to bring allegiants to help contest scenarios and score flags. This is in part to my belief that reznik is a mid line caster who should only commit if victory is in hand. I'm not saying assasination only if they just traded the only remaining threat on the table to remove scourge I have no issue removing that threat with reznik jacked up on engine of destruction. His synergy with the revelator seems like something that might draw more players to try him. Frankly all I can say is play him it will create a great play experience for you and your opponent.
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Provengreil
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 23, 2017 2:18:06 GMT
In fairness, Rez can have 8 effective focus, and has both Ignite and EoD. Depending on upkeeps, he can swing 5-6 times at MAT11 PS20, potentially with Purgation if target has an upkeep. Skip Ignite for 1-2 more swings at PS18. Be can assassinate without the feat. I apologize, I was less clear than I imagined. I meant the extra tethers of focus 6 hit him in particular quite hard: control range and, more importantly, magic attack stat.
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