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Post by sircas on Jul 19, 2017 15:05:14 GMT
Harrowers came up in another thread but I thought I'd post separately to try and clear something up for me.
Harrowers are 16 points. They cant really toe it out with any other heavy jack. They are good against infantry. The ghost shot quick work is an unreliable but possible assassination.
The Corruptor has the same cost, the same threat range, a better gun and tremendously better anti infantry abilities. Its even better against most jacks due to the Mat increase. It does lose the assassination capability but for a lot of other utility.
Yet people on forums have repeatedly stood by the Harrower and call it good where ive lumped it somewhere near the helldiver in terms of playability.
My question is why, what do people get out of it that ive missed? Do people make assassination lists enabled by the harrower or is it something else? Constructive comments appreciated.
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Jul 19, 2017 17:53:24 GMT
The reason I stand by the Harrower and not the Helldiver is because like you said, the Harrower is good against infantry. The Helldiver is good against nothing. If the meta were to shift into a place where Infantry reigned supreme and things like Khador jacks didn't see a lot of play the Horrower would be a great consideration. However in the current meta Harrowers are borderline useless because everything that sees play will destroy it and it will barely be able to scratch back. A shift in the meta will make the Harrower playable, while no amount of meta shiftings will help the Helldiver. The Helldiver needs CID work.
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Post by rainless on Jul 19, 2017 19:03:58 GMT
I think I am with you. The corruptor seems real solid.
Only thing I can think of is the Harrower can run itself after getting some souls on it? Maybe its just more focus efficient for caster?
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Jul 19, 2017 20:11:40 GMT
The Corruptor is definitely not the dumpster fire it was in Mark2, but like the Harrower it suffers from the current meta state. Personally when I look at the two the Corruptor is the purely offensive anti-infantry jack with some utility for its caster, while the Harrower is the more survivable one. While the Corruptor is better at taking large chunks of infantry off the table it's relatively easy to cripple. The Harrower on the other hand has Steady, Higher armor, 2 more boxes in relevant columns to help keep arms from falling off randomly, and pathfinder which allows it to hide in terrain without sacrificing anything. Both jacks have points to consider when discussing which anti-infantry tool a specific list needs, but in the current meta I just don't find myself needing anti-infantry heavies at all.
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Post by schostoppa1 on Jul 19, 2017 21:26:08 GMT
I think the thing thats pretty crippling for the harrower is that it needs Dual attack at 16pts. All it takes is a wiff on the charge and youve effectively shut down its gimmick. Which means outside venny it suffers. While in a vaccum its not a terrible jack but i feel its easily shut down. The corrupter suffers from a similar "on/off" ability. It requires living models to function as targets. So in my mind the benefits dont outweigh the strict target selection. Plus we arent really known for throwing 5" aoes anyway. In my mind it would be more thematic if
1) The corruptor had a rule that allowed any living model that it boxes with a direct hit can make a 3" advance ignoring free strikes.
This would allow some interesting play on pycho venom and burster.
2) in keeping with the mind control theme i would take away distillation and allow it to disrupt jacks and either add or remove one fury from warbeasts.
These would allow it to capitalize on different targets and give it more of a ranged shenannigans support piece feel using psycho toxins and neural disruptors to effect enemies battleplans.
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kuarnix
Junior Strategist
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Post by kuarnix on Jul 19, 2017 23:32:33 GMT
See it's kind of funny, because right now I think I'd rather take the Corruptor unless I know I'm going to see something like, Legion of Steel. It's gun is more useful against more targets because of the higher range and POW - but if I'm going to take a shooting helljack for 16 points, it's going to be the Leviathan; and now I can take the Desecrator at 14 with the same range and POW, and better melee potential...
But to be fair the Corruptor's abilities work against living or undead models, except the healing one.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jul 20, 2017 6:48:07 GMT
I think they both suffer from being too expensive while not bringing anything to the table that we can't get from elsewhere.
The Corruptor's abilities are really interesting, but a Nightwretch does very similar things for less than half the cost. It also won't do much more than shooting because it can't go toe to toe with another heavy in melee. In that case 16 points is a lot.
The Harrower has interesting abilities on paper, but suffers a lot when not up against living infantry, since it will gain no souls. And at MAT 6 it actually already needs help fulfilling its role against infantry. On top of that SPD 5 means a lot of infantry actually outthreat it. So basically it needs Infernal Machine or Terminal Velocity to do what it's supposed to and if it doesn't get souls, a POW 12 gun is really unimpressive. 16 points is a lot for that.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Jul 21, 2017 3:08:18 GMT
Hi guys,
I brought up the Harrower in another thread over in Khadorland. I was running it not too long ago while playing a friendly game in a Morty1 list. I had 2x Slayers, 2x Seethers, 1x Harrower, 10x M-thralls, Necrosurgeon & stitchthralls, + odds & ends. This was before Infernal machines came out, so it was obviously out of theme.
I went up against my buddy who was running Vyros2, 2x 5-elf Destor units, 1x Destor Thane (or regular thane), a couple of warjacks, and odds and ends.
I forget the details of who went first and all of that, but my friend's game plan was to jam the cav in my face and reposition them as needed (feat, special rule, I forget). My Seethers and Slayers on the flanks and some of the M-thralls in the center took the charges that reached. Then I went to work.
The M-thralls and Necrosurgeon & friends were part meat shield and part fuel for the spell Sacrificial Lamb. I thought that the changes to Mortenebra's spell list from Mk2 to Mk3 were bad, but Sac Lamb worked just fine for me. Granted, I was going up against low-DEF cav and not clouds of high-DEF nasty infantry, but the excess focus does have a flexibility to it. I cast Overrun in such a way so that the Harrower would be able to move forward with a load of souls, after having "Tune Up" from Deryliss put on it. I also popped feat. (My friends hate Recalibration.)
The Seethers and Slayers started to tear apart the cav, and as they did the 5" Spirit Harvester on the Harrower started to gobble up some of the souls. (And the Stitch Thralls grabbed the bodies. It was a dark Nirvana...) I think I got 4 souls in all. Overrun went off as planned, the Harrower went forward, and then charged. After his thresher attack killed the mechanic and the thane my buddy moved the warjack away from the Harrower (feat?), which then quick-worked a shot into Vyros for giggles. After that the game doesn't matter for this discussion.
As a Khador player who dabbles in other faction's warjack / warbeast armies, and some other theme armies, I like the Harrower. I can see 1 or 2 of them in a well built Morty1 Infernal Machine theme army. Sac Lamb + Tune Up + Overrun = $$$ on a Harrower in my opinion.
Comparing a Harrower to a Corruptor in a vacuum is silly in my opinion, they are both good warjacks. If you are going to compare and contrast them you *have* to include what warcaster you are talking about and what you are looking to accomplish. They have very different mission profiles: the Harrower is a combat monster while the Corruptor is a toolbox on legs that allows you to cook up extra dirty plans. Saying that one of them is better than the other is like saying that the number 4 is better than the color purple.
The Harrower is an excellent general purpose beatstick that can siphon souls off of the work that it or some of your other units do for you - that 5" spirit harvester range means a lot in my opinion. Yes, it does suffer against all-warjack army lists, so it suffers in the current meta. But if there is a 10-man squad of low-level schmucks off on a flank, that Harrower and 2x Soul Trappers (which are thralls, BTW) should be able to handle it without support from your warcaster for a couple of turns. Quick Work is a nice bit of frosting on the top that gives you your points worth.
I'll admit, I have never taken or seen the Corruptor in a game, but I have to say it has some super-cool special abilities. Here's my thing, though: unless you have a warcaster that gives it assault or weapons platform (does Cryx have any?) you are paying 16 points for the ability to make ~1~ special attack per turn. It is pretty much a Cryxian warjack gun mage. It could be the lynch pin in some super-sneaky plan that will win you the game! Or it could be a really expensive warjack that doesn't help you too much. I think it depends upon you and how you play, your warcaster, and your army.
But hey, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
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kuarnix
Junior Strategist
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Post by kuarnix on Jul 21, 2017 5:14:18 GMT
Unfortunately Tune Up does not work on the *Thresher attack. If it did we'd be back in business but....alas.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Jul 22, 2017 2:33:28 GMT
Unfortunately Tune Up does not work on the *Thresher attack. If it did we'd be back in business but....alas. Oops. Realistically, the Harrower doesn't need Tune Up. A couple of focus and a couple of souls and that dumb thing will do just fine. Unleash that thing on Morty's feat turn and things turn ugly with a capital "F". Other than a rules oops on my part, what else in my long-winded post is worth commenting on? Or am I so off-base you're just going to back away from the campfire?
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Post by schostoppa1 on Jul 22, 2017 15:04:48 GMT
I think comparing them in a vaccum is the only way to assess where they fall in our faction imho. Maybe with the exception of the hell diver every jack can be "good" when included with "x" warcaster. So i think that mode of analysis can get pretty semantic. I would rather have a discussion about the benefits/drawbacks of each, if that combination is worth those points and if not what would it take to make the rules on the model worth it. Another vain you could go is consider that the harrower is by and far a better option than the corruptor 99.9% of the time. so does that mean the harrower is just right at 16 and the current corruptor is over costed?
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Post by sircas on Jul 24, 2017 8:47:35 GMT
As a Khador player who dabbles in other faction's warjack / warbeast armies, and some other theme armies, I like the Harrower. I can see 1 or 2 of them in a well built Morty1 Infernal Machine theme army. Sac Lamb + Tune Up + Overrun = $$$ on a Harrower in my opinion. Comparing a Harrower to a Corruptor in a vacuum is silly in my opinion, they are both good warjacks. If you are going to compare and contrast them you *have* to include what warcaster you are talking about and what you are looking to accomplish. They have very different mission profiles: the Harrower is a combat monster while the Corruptor is a toolbox on legs that allows you to cook up extra dirty plans. Saying that one of them is better than the other is like saying that the number 4 is better than the color purple. The Harrower is an excellent general purpose beatstick that can siphon souls off of the work that it or some of your other units do for you - that 5" spirit harvester range means a lot in my opinion. Yes, it does suffer against all-warjack army lists, so it suffers in the current meta. But if there is a 10-man squad of low-level schmucks off on a flank, that Harrower and 2x Soul Trappers (which are thralls, BTW) should be able to handle it without support from your warcaster for a couple of turns. Quick Work is a nice bit of frosting on the top that gives you your points worth. Thats an interesting perspective. But im at a loss as to how you categorise the harrower as a beat stick. Its mat 6 with one pow 16 attack. What are you doing with it to make it a combat monster? To repeat the original post the corruptor is exactly the same against heavy targets but with better mat and in melee against infantry burster is usually better than thresher. The one thing the harrower has is that quick work shot. Did that shot change the game noticeably? Did it do damage and force the caster back? Im curious to know.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Jul 24, 2017 15:06:48 GMT
As a Khador player who dabbles in other faction's warjack / warbeast armies, and some other theme armies, I like the Harrower. I can see 1 or 2 of them in a well built Morty1 Infernal Machine theme army. Sac Lamb + Tune Up + Overrun = $$$ on a Harrower in my opinion. Comparing a Harrower to a Corruptor in a vacuum is silly in my opinion, they are both good warjacks. If you are going to compare and contrast them you *have* to include what warcaster you are talking about and what you are looking to accomplish. They have very different mission profiles: the Harrower is a combat monster while the Corruptor is a toolbox on legs that allows you to cook up extra dirty plans. Saying that one of them is better than the other is like saying that the number 4 is better than the color purple. The Harrower is an excellent general purpose beatstick that can siphon souls off of the work that it or some of your other units do for you - that 5" spirit harvester range means a lot in my opinion. Yes, it does suffer against all-warjack army lists, so it suffers in the current meta. But if there is a 10-man squad of low-level schmucks off on a flank, that Harrower and 2x Soul Trappers (which are thralls, BTW) should be able to handle it without support from your warcaster for a couple of turns. Quick Work is a nice bit of frosting on the top that gives you your points worth. Thats an interesting perspective. But im at a loss as to how you categorise the harrower as a beat stick. Its mat 6 with one pow 16 attack. What are you doing with it to make it a combat monster? My apologies, my Khador was showing itself there. Khador has only 2x non-colossal warjacks with reach, the Spriggan and Beast 09. Of those two, only Beast 09 has Thresher. Beast 09 hardly sees table time anymore due to its exceptionally high cost - it's a good warjack, but it is expensive. The idea of having a non-character warjack with reach (and Thresher!) was so exciting I lost my senses. The Harrower is not a beat stick in the same sense like the Juggernaut, Ironclad, Slayer, or Crusader. But the Harrower doesn't have any special rules or "special" attacks (as opposed to *Attacks) like the Corruptor - it just goes out and kills. Supporting that is the Harrower having Quick Work - after it kills things with its melee attack it is then allowed to make a ranged attack?!? I don't see the Corruptor doing that. The other thing that caught my attention is that the Harrower has Soul Taker: Spirit Harvester. The potential for the Harrower to grab soul tokens from killed enemy from within 5", and hold up to 5 soul tokens, is enormous. If you play it right, after the two sides engage a Harrower should be able to run around with 2-3 focus every turn and really contribute. (In an infantry-rich environment I see the Soulhunters as a back-up battery for the Harrower, whatever the Harrower can't collect the Soulhunter grabs and then feeds to the Harrower later.) I personally would rather have a 2" Thresher with POW 16 than a 5" AOE with POW 10 that can also have a follow up Corrosion, but I'll be polite and say it's situational, depending on who / what are nearby and where they are to each other. And don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to argue that the Corruptor is a bad warjack. Zerkova2 would be a monster with 1 or 2 of those things, and I can only imagine some of the Eee-vile plans that Cryx spell slingers can concoct with a Corruptor. I just think you Cryx guys are making a mistake in discarding the Harrower out of hand for the Corruptor. But, hey, if you Cryx guys don't want the Harrower anymore my corner of Khador would ~love~ to get its filthy mits on a pile of Harrowers. Any. Day. Of. The. Week. In that game I described, no. Partly because with Overrun I was able to dive the Harrower deep into his forces, so it was looking at primarily the backfield which was target-poor, so the only really good target was the pristine warcaster, which it damaged. (Wraith Shot, I like that!) The other thing is that I was not looking to force his caster back, I knew the other player wouldn't pull him back. But what it did do was make him go "Holy crap, I have a monster warjack in the middle of my force! Run!" It was a nice disruptor of his plans. So the other player started to shift the remainder of his force, primarily cav and fast-enough warjacks, over to my right flank. It was fun.
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Post by tiberius on Jul 26, 2017 13:36:05 GMT
The big reason I loved the harrower was its increased survivability, reach and thresher that always did it for me. Worth 16 pts? It has always had a good threat range with reach and it always gets work done for me, typically as a trampling assassin. My favorite crabjack in use. Close second for me is the leviathan and I only use it as ranged support, it always gets work done for me too and I do feel is worth its cost.
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kuarnix
Junior Strategist
Posts: 145
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Post by kuarnix on Jul 27, 2017 21:54:04 GMT
Hey Blarg, meant to get back to this but I'm just going to start typing it out instead of quoting all that.
Basically, I feel like the Harrower has some deficiencies and it may have some use with 'casters that can overcome them, but otherwise it is probably not so great.
Pros: Thresher Guns are always handy 2" melee Pathfinder Steady
Neither here nor there: Potential to power up as the game goes on (but can compete with some 'casters and models) Middling threat range in the Cryx helljack stable
Cons Still fragile for a linebreaker role, likely will not survive retaliation Low POW on melee and ranged Low attack volume vs. single target Middling MAT and RAT
So my assessment is that it's basically got this anti-infantry role that it's not...quite... accurate enough to do without getting focus handed out to it (I know you gotta hand out focus to do work but gimme a sec). It's POW is high enough to thresh infantry until you start hitting the higher ARM multi-wound variety, but a little too low to really do a number on warjacks without sufficient support (focus again) and it has a only a single meaningful attack against these targets.
There are of course ways to help it out with all of those things in Cryx. You can use Dark Shroud models or 'casters with an ARM debuff to put it up to a decent 18/19 POW (20/21 if you can stack these things). You can help it into infantry with DEF adjusters like Marked for Death, Black Spot, etc. You can let it dig in deeper with SPD buffs; you can help it survive with cheaty Cryx spells (like Admonition) or ARM buffs.
The issue, I think, is that many of these things are 'caster dependent and require a significant amount of focus expenditure. For example, one of the best-case scenarios for the Harrower is under Gaspy3. He can give it a 12" threat with Mobility; make it effectively MAT 8 POW 18 (20 with Dark Shroud); and make it ARM 20 while engaged. The issue is that if you are going to do all of these things, you are committing basically your entire focus budget to it (3 for the debuff, 3 for mobility). Same thing for Aiakios, he can get it 3" further with less POW or 1" further with the same POW, but it costs him his feat and at least one FOC (3 if you need a MAT fixer).
Often, I think, you end up in situations where you can address some of the Harrower's deficiencies but not all of them. For example, Skarre2 will keep it alive better than almost anyone, and Black Spot is super good for it into infantry. However, she can't help with it's low POW or speed at all, so I wouldn't really want to take it here unless I'm taking Dark Shroud models or I know I'll be playing into one or more 10-man infantry units. Denny3 can fill it up and fix MAT and POW, but can't help with speed. Mortenabra1 can fix it's speed (if you can proc overrun) and durability, but not damage or accuracy. Mortenabra2 can fix speed, durability, and damage but not accuracy (in a relevant way). Goreshade3 fixes accuracy and speed with Infernal Machine, and can probably fix POW with Scything Touch, but no durability. The Coven can do just about everything for it, but they may not want to dump all their focus into it.
So yeah you can really turn it up high, but it's a pretty big investment. The other question you have to ask is, how many infantry models are you going to catch? If you're only going to catch three, that's not a huge improvement over a Slayer with three base attacks at MAT7 (and the 1" melee makes it possible to catch three). The Slayer will also play and trade better into an army with several warjacks. Of course, if you can't fix pathfinder (i.e., Venethrax) then the Harrower may be more appealing.
So there are lots of things to consider. I don't think it's bad per se; I do think that it is somewhat of a 'meta-predator' and the metagame is not currently conducive to it's prey. Hopefully we will see more living infantry on the table and it'll become more useful. In a high ARM and shooting permissive environment, it seems better to take something like a Leviathan at the same points cost (which is better into hard targets), or a 'cheaper warjack with comparable delivery potential and superior damage.
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