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Post by spikevash13 on Jul 19, 2017 20:14:58 GMT
I only took a giant shot of masters A. It had 4 people out of 90, and best was #40. I assume the other one where a guy got 28th was heat B, which was over in 3 rounds so it had less people so both did about the same. As in not good
I didn't play protectorate cause they are somewhat boring and I didn't know what I'd do against cygnar really or ghost fleet. They might be good into them, but I haven't played it. Also I don't want to buy more crusaders I already have like 4
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Post by dmorktry on Jul 20, 2017 0:17:01 GMT
While correlation and cause aren't always connected, I'm assuming the lack of PoM players isn't for a lack of players.
Can I get some insight as to the limitations other factions face? A PoM army's effectiveness is heavily tied to the choir, a unit that can only move within a 6" bubble on the leader and can only affect jacks within 3 inches. This means it's difficult to split our forces while still remaining as effective as we're designed to be (because jacks are designed with the choir in mind). Any sniped choir member is a pretty significant loss, increasing them to max just jams up more of your backline because you also have multiple solos trying to get in to support the jacks and you're constantly trying to figure out the order of operation to get the most benefit. And the end result is just keeping up with the other factions, all that prep needed to deliver our stuff the way it was intended and yet it's not like anything crazy or significantly above average for the amount of set up. Why go through all that hassle when there are more forgiving factions with higher reward?
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Jul 20, 2017 1:32:40 GMT
Every faction has a glaring weakness. For example:
Cygnar is relatively squishy Khador can be accurately hit with inaccurate weapons while having the majority of their jacks move like snails x.x Circle's units are either or (relatively squishy or slow as hell and can't keep up with their other pieces)
Some factions focal points make them easily counter-able, like Cryx and undead/incorporeal or Legion being flighty with eyeless sight.
Our factions glaring weakness is that we HAVE no weakness, thus no strength. Our only oddball playing style is fire spam, all our other builds revolve around how average everything we have is. We can do range, we can do melee. We can do attrition, we can do assassination. However, no matter what build we choose, we can't do it better than a faction with a focus.
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Post by dmorktry on Jul 20, 2017 2:02:43 GMT
I guess by weakness I meant to the extent that a faction's weakness can be exploited. I'd expect the "jack of all trades, master of none" faction to not be so dependent on a couple squishy models that need to play fairly far up to operate leaving them vulnerable and with nothing superb at guaranteeing their safety.
I can agree that we lean strongly into the "no strengths, no weaknesses" camp, but that's not the kind of game WM/H is currently. Factions have exploitable weaknesses but also precautions against those weakness in addition to having strength. Cygnar lists can out range their threats and then will typically have a defense once the distance is closed. Khador hits like a truck and is built like one too so the stuff that does make it can be effective in addition to having strong infantry to answer questions as well.
Protectorate has very baseline jacks that are all costed either appropriately or slightly over. They're supported by choir which die to a stiff breeze, easily get in the way, and require above average planning in making sure they're in the right place at the right time because of their range and command. You take them away, you're left with the baseline jacks. Now, we have a fair bit of defensive options. Cover from Vigilant, Shield Guard from Rhoven and Co, Templars, and Devouts, and several casters have a defensive based spell or two. The problem being, there are multiple things in our army that also need those defensive options to function effectively and if you give them to choir that means you have your jack line, your choir, your defensive option if applicable, and more likely than not your warcaster all in this nice little group of overtake and convoluted activation order and if any of those pieces fall, you're immediately fighting an uphill battle.
By that logic, our weakness is our dependence on squishy vulnerable units and solos to reach our peak efficiency except the end result isn't an overwhelming amount of efficiency and aside from a considerable amount of effort on your part or a points investment on a baby sitter, those solos and units will remain vulnerable. Taking out the choir should require effort, not collateral damage (although maybe I play too much into Cygnar) and keeping them alive shouldn't cost too much more on top of their base points plus the tax we pay on our jacks for the privilege of having them in our faction in the first place.
I think a more appropriate direction to move our faction would be to solidify it as the feast or famine faction so much to say as to give us a better reward for protecting our support that's more than just keeping our head above water.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Jul 20, 2017 3:09:33 GMT
welcome to Skorne, my friend. Skorne has required support pieces that are auto includes into each list that all die to a stiff breeze and do not give out as good of buffs as the choir. They also do not have a 5 inch range, they have a 3 inch or base to base contact. However, Skorne has still placed well in overseas competition, but place horribly in the states. This is because they can still bring rock and paper, even if they can't play scissors. Skorne possesses the same issues as Menoth, only menoth has distinct advantages, one being the use of mass fire, another being its big hitters are all constructs instead of living models. How the Skorne players over seas did well was by using a beast heavy list + an infantry heavy list while using casters that turn the attrition game on its head.
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Post by Swampmist on Jul 20, 2017 4:21:28 GMT
Choir are also 3" range, and beast handlers are technically able to run to get b2b for the free charge.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Jul 20, 2017 6:23:24 GMT
ah yep, you're right. I was getting the range mixed up with the agonizer (which might be 6); the issues of playing 2 factions. however, I'd much prefer the choir's spells over the beast handlers. It also doesn't really change much about the rest of what I said
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Post by macdaddy on Jul 20, 2017 6:39:50 GMT
Skorne will be fine when they get themes. I expect themes to put them up on top of the curve. I have seen them so well at a lot of places.
Part of the issue right now is the 2 Boogeymen, Cygnar and Ghost fleet are really hard for us to counter. The lists we can make that play into them struggle against other lists and creating a List that can handle both is also difficult due to faction options. I still am trying to figure out the ghost fleet match up. Making a list that can deal with that AND take on other things is difficult. I'm still convinced that Ghost fleet is a Denny 1 issue though not a ghost fleet issue.
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Post by dmorktry on Jul 20, 2017 6:43:58 GMT
I'd say Paingiver buffs are pretty equal to Choir buffs, +2 STR for skorne melee beasts is better than +2 damage for Prot jacks, and the heal and fury removal are solid, plus they can all do separate buffs and they can just run into b2b for free charges, I can't find their CMD but it's either equal to or greater.
I've never built a list for Skorne so I can't say how much the Paingiver tax affects them, but is that usually all the beast support they run? I'd imagine animi would help the beasts better support themselves.
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Post by gargs454 on Jul 20, 2017 13:25:28 GMT
I do think one issue that Protectorate can run into, especially for new players, is the irony of our support. I say irony because we do have really, really good support. The problem is that our support is so glad that if we are not careful, we can often find ourselves loading up on too much support and not having enough actual weapons. Its definitely a delicate balance that I think a lot of other factions are better able to avoid due to just not having as much good support. I think its also possible that this has, at times, stifled the development of Protectorate because we are known as the support faction and they'll release a model that offers good support, at least in theory, but which still doesn't really have room in a list. I sort of see the Deliverer Arms Master as an example of this. In theory, he can really help the Sunburst Crews, but then that makes the crew a bit expensive as a result. In theory, he can help Deliverers, but even with his help, they are still really sad. That said, there isn't really anything wrong with his rules, its just that he won't often fit into lists imho.
As for the choir, perhaps I've just been lucky, but I haven't had too much difficulty in keeping them alive. Though to be fair, if you run up against a lot of Cygnar or Ret, you are likely to have more issues keeping them up and running. The biggest problem with the Choir is that it can be tricky to keep them in range of the jacks they are supporting (which is particularly ironic considering how slow our jacks are -- I'd say they are effectively slower than Khador jacks since so many Khador casters have a means with which to speed them up). Usually for me, by the time the Choir starts dying, I've already lost a jack or two, so losing a choir boy doesn't hurt a whole lot.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jul 20, 2017 15:00:25 GMT
To succeed with the protectorate you really need to learn how to trade up effectively. Especially if you're over filling with support. You need to make sure your army is always killing more than the enemy and trading less in order to do that.
Also on the note about beast handlers. They have one distinct advantage. That being that their buffs stack on top of each other and that the whole units doesn't need to use the same ability. That makes beat handlers extremely versatile especially cause 3 of them can enrage,heal, reduce fury and let it charge for free all on one beast that succeded is threshold check and had one fury on it. That's why the choir abilities are do good compared to the beat handlers. The choir would be busted if it could hand out all it's buffs on one turn and want so restricted as it is.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 20, 2017 15:42:23 GMT
Skorne will be fine when they get themes. I expect themes to put them up on top of the curve. I have seen them so well at a lot of places. Part of the issue right now is the 2 Boogeymen, Cygnar and Ghost fleet are really hard for us to counter. The lists we can make that play into them struggle against other lists and creating a List that can handle both is also difficult due to faction options. I still am trying to figure out the ghost fleet match up. Making a list that can deal with that AND take on other things is difficult. I'm still convinced that Ghost fleet is a Denny 1 issue though not a ghost fleet issue. I've also been giving Grymkin a VERY close eye since the cards hit(I was away for pretty much their whole CID). They seem to be extremely cheap for what they do, and they mess with a lot of our recursion and denial passively while they do their other stuff. Testament, Harbinger, High Reclaimer, Errants, Zealots, and Reckoners all fail almost by default into most of their lists. However, I think a dark horse into the upcoming metas could be Feora 2 in the army of the faithful theme. She works VERY well with our atillery, brings HOJ to buff zealots and start a ton of fires, is ARM 19 most times so doesn't fear being peppered to death, gets fires onto key models easily, then doesn't let the fires go out. I can't speak for the higher levels of play, but it should work rather well for me, locally, considering what I usually see.
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Post by gargs454 on Jul 20, 2017 17:05:55 GMT
Hmmm, hadn't really taken a look at Grymkin yet. Sounds great that there's another faction that is a really hard counter to us (along with Ret). /sarcasm
On the plus side, the group that I normally play with have said that they didn't really like Grymkin when they were called Malifaux and don't like them any better now, so at least with that group I won't have to worry about them. Only have to be concerned at local game days/tourneys.
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Post by paradox on Jul 20, 2017 17:12:55 GMT
Skorne will be fine when they get themes. I expect themes to put them up on top of the curve. I have seen them so well at a lot of places. Part of the issue right now is the 2 Boogeymen, Cygnar and Ghost fleet are really hard for us to counter. The lists we can make that play into them struggle against other lists and creating a List that can handle both is also difficult due to faction options. I still am trying to figure out the ghost fleet match up. Making a list that can deal with that AND take on other things is difficult. I'm still convinced that Ghost fleet is a Denny 1 issue though not a ghost fleet issue. I've also been giving Grymkin a VERY close eye since the cards hit(I was away for pretty much their whole CID). They seem to be extremely cheap for what they do, and they mess with a lot of our recursion and denial passively while they do their other stuff. Testament, Harbinger, High Reclaimer, Errants, Zealots, and Reckoners all fail almost by default into most of their lists. However, I think a dark horse into the upcoming metas could be Feora 2 in the army of the faithful theme. She works VERY well with our atillery, brings HOJ to buff zealots and start a ton of fires, is ARM 19 most times so doesn't fear being peppered to death, gets fires onto key models easily, then doesn't let the fires go out. I can't speak for the higher levels of play, but it should work rather well for me, locally, considering what I usually see. Ive also seen many lists that spam dudez or low ARM lights/lessers. There seem to be relatively few heavies. These are all prone to Fire, which is why I still like Feora1. Feat, Wall, Blazing Effigy. All possibly in tandem with HoJ where it counts. There is Death Knell, but its range is short enough and its soft enough that theres a good chance at killing it when you need to. Im definitely keen to face down some defiers.
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Alealexi
BattleBox Champ
Burning heritecs and wracking as always... it's a personal hobby.
Posts: 55
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Post by Alealexi on Jul 21, 2017 4:34:25 GMT
Hmmm, hadn't really taken a look at Grymkin yet. Sounds great that there's another faction that is a really hard counter to us (along with Ret). /sarcasm On the plus side, the group that I normally play with have said that they didn't really like Grymkin when they were called Malifaux and don't like them any better now, so at least with that group I won't have to worry about them. Only have to be concerned at local game days/tourneys. One think I noticed is that Grymkin don't like remove from play or leap damage like Ashes to Ashes or Admonisher leaps. Many of they effects happens when an "enemy attack destroys" their models like Sorrowful Rampage on Katrina can be ignored by such abilities. Same with some abilities that make enemy models suffer a damage roll without an attack can ignore such abilities.
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