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Post by lamoron on Jul 18, 2017 7:08:28 GMT
Stupid Ghost Fleet needs to be dealt with at the WTC this year, and I got "volunteered" as one of the players who should be able to take it on. Now I don't want any Haleys, I don't much feel like bringing Colossals (but I'm not totally opposed to it), and the list won't need to deal with anything other than Cryx, but should be able to deal with more or less every popular Cryx build.
I'm thinking about trying Siege, as Explosivo on Cyclones pretty much hard counters Ghost Fleets main trick, but I'd like a couple of fresh eyes on the build before I spend my limited time playtesting it.
The list
'Siege' Brisbane / Heavy Metal - Squire (Free) - Cyclone - Cyclone - Cyclone - Stormclad - Triumph (assuming he stays at 18 points like in the CID) Journeyman Warcaster (Free) - Firefly Lieutenant Allison Jakes (Free) - Thunderhead Captain Arlan Strangewayes (Free)
The opposition
Ghost Fleet should have a hard time dealing with three Cyclones, two of which can have Explosivo each round, which means 4d3 RFP attacks at 17" threat. If he tries rushing with the Revenants then Thunderhead can get a RFP pulse, which should ruin his day. I would fully expect Deneghra to try and Crippling Grasp Thunderhead, but with Sidekick and Foxhole he's DEF 18 so it could fail unless he spends his feat on it, and even with feat it's a 9 to land the Crippling Grasp.
CID Triumph has free boosted damage with Siege, True Sight, Shield Guard and a magic gun, so he can hurt Wraith Engine, scalpel out the Hellslinger, or maybe deal with an Arc Node. Stormclad is there to deal with anything heavy like the Nightmare version of GF, or Arlan can magic up his sword so he can beat on the Wraith Engine.
The double Wraith Engine Skarre1 list should be manageable as well, as Triumph needs 5+ to hit on his rapid fire shot, so he reliably lands 10+ damage on a Wraith Engine each turn, allowing the Stormclad to finish them with ease (in theory, everything can go bad with dice). Explosivo Cyclones should deal with Machine Wraiths, or take out Stalkers with the help of Mage Sight. I'm not comfortable it's a great matchup for me, but it seems doable.
Dark Host should be okay as well, with 6d3 Cyclone shots to burn down non-stealth banes, covering fire where I need it most, and the Thunderhead Pulse to deal with whatever makes it through.
Your thoughts?
So what am I missing, what builds could I expect to see that I haven't considered, and why would they touch me in my most sensitive places? Only focus on Cryx, and no Haleys... I repeat... no Haleys!
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jul 18, 2017 8:53:05 GMT
I have played Caine 3 a couple of times into Ghost Fleet, and it is not the worse thing in the world.
The list has no RFP so you are relying on a high enough volume of attacks, which does not sound great but Caine 3 has a few tools in his favour
1) Ace can buy a turn of relative safety for Caine with Infiltrate 2) Grievous wounds from Watts can negate Rengraves call to Sacrifice 3) Mage Sight can be used to threaten Denny 4) the synergy from the feat nicely counteracts the rat debuff rom Denny's feat
My list is basically Caine, Ace, Thunderhead and 6 Chargers, with a Firefly on Junior
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Post by jisidro on Jul 18, 2017 11:10:48 GMT
If your team doesn't have more Cygnar you should take a Haley to create a boggeyman effect, that alone should help you guys steer towards your prefered (dreaded?) match-up.
Going with Genral thoughts, juniors are a liability as Denny1 has long reach and can make plays to turn your jacks off I think you are vulnerable.
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Post by darkangeldentist on Jul 18, 2017 12:07:31 GMT
Whilst I'm not playing much I did get to go to the ETC with Cygnar and my last round game did offer the option to play into Ghost fleet. My opponent took one look at my list though and knew they'd be playing the other list. (In this case he had a non-wraith engine Denny1 ghost fleet and a non-theme Witch Coven list available to him.)
Caine1 is my Cryx drop and I really like the list into most things Cryx can bring.
Caine1 Ace Stormwall (Hurricane might be better but they are both good on Caine1) Reinholdt
Journeyman warcaster Sentinel Max tempest blazers Gun mage captain adept Arlan Strangewayes Min field mechanics Gorman Di Wulfe Ragman
Blazers are great into Cryx, their speed lets them be wherever you need them and reposition 5" can keep them pretty safe from retaliation. E-leap shots also mean that they can kill enough models to make a proper dent in the horde despite the lack of RFP in the list. Blur pushes the Blazer DEF up to happy levels where the ghost fleet guns are very unlikely to ever hit and you can usually cover most of the unit with the sentinel to help avoid shield guard a lucky hit. Caine himself can kill a lot on feat turn but more importantly between Reinholdt, the GMCA and Ace Denny has to be very careful about where she stands. A turn of stealth gives Caine a turn to relatively safely commit and the field marshal ability granting magical guns means that the Stormwall does plenty of work at range whatever ghost fleet is bringing.
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Post by lamoron on Jul 18, 2017 12:24:50 GMT
I thought about Caine1, but I thought he would just get knocked down and killed. I guess his personal threat and the lists massive infantry removal is enough to somehow prevent this?
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Post by lamoron on Jul 18, 2017 12:29:38 GMT
If your team doesn't have more Cygnar you should take a Haley to create a boggeyman effect, that alone should help you guys steer towards your prefered (dreaded?) match-up. Going with Genral thoughts, juniors are a liability as Denny1 has long reach and can make plays to turn your jacks off I think you are vulnerable. Well, she can reach 20" with the Rifles, and my Jacks have 17" + 6-8" for the Juniors control area, and once those Rifles get 4d3 RFP shots they stop being all that scary. I'll consider it though.
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Post by jisidro on Jul 18, 2017 13:57:35 GMT
If your team doesn't have more Cygnar you should take a Haley to create a boggeyman effect, that alone should help you guys steer towards your prefered (dreaded?) match-up. Going with Genral thoughts, juniors are a liability as Denny1 has long reach and can make plays to turn your jacks off I think you are vulnerable. Well, she can reach 20" with the Rifles, and my Jacks have 17" + 6-8" for the Juniors control area, and once those Rifles get 4d3 RFP shots they stop being all that scary. I'll consider it though.
Don't Forget Arc Nodes and Venoms/Scourges or even a Seduction for a clutch play. It's Denny1
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Post by lamoron on Jul 18, 2017 15:01:30 GMT
Well, she can reach 20" with the Rifles, and my Jacks have 17" + 6-8" for the Juniors control area, and once those Rifles get 4d3 RFP shots they stop being all that scary. I'll consider it though.
Don't Forget Arc Nodes and Venoms/Scourges or even a Seduction for a clutch play. It's Denny1
I think I can keep junior safe, as the Firefly is going to keep back to unengage my heavies with leaps. Jakes is more problematic as the Thunderhead wants to be up front, but theoretically I could use Arcane Shield and Foxhole, while keeping her b2b with Thunderhead, but I think distance is a better defense when 'The Withering' is involved.
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Post by Booggy on Jul 18, 2017 15:06:34 GMT
What do you think about this ?
(Sloan 1) Captain Kara Sloan [+28] - Firefly [8] - Firefly [8] - Hunter [11] - Hunter [11] - Lancer [10] - Stormwall [39] - Squire [0(5)] Captain Arlan Strangewayes [0(4)] Journeyman Warcaster [0(4)] - Cyclone [13] Archduke Alain Runewood, Lord of Fharin [0(4)] Field Mechaniks (min) [3]
It's juste a theoritical list, and it's stupidly skewed toward Ghost Fleet, with a Lancer just to arc-node Dust to Dust and RFP unit Leader, Cyclone + Stormwall for covering fires, Fireflies for infantry frying.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jul 18, 2017 15:10:03 GMT
What do you think about this ? (Sloan 1) Captain Kara Sloan [+28] - Firefly [8] - Firefly [8] - Hunter [11] - Hunter [11] - Lancer [10] - Stormwall [39] - Squire [0(5)] Captain Arlan Strangewayes [0(4)] Journeyman Warcaster [0(4)] - Cyclone [13] Archduke Alain Runewood, Lord of Fharin [0(4)] Field Mechaniks (min) [3] It's juste a theoritical list, and it's stupidly skewed toward Ghost Fleet, with a Lancer just to arc-node Dust to Dust and RFP unit Leader, Cyclone + Stormwall for covering fires, Fireflies for infantry frying. I was toying with the idea of Sloan - Lancer as a janky Ghost Fleet drop, however as you pointed out the Lancer is dead weight in most other games, so I gave up on the idea
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Post by lamoron on Jul 18, 2017 16:12:43 GMT
Lancer is a great Jack in any game against a WM faction. The ability to neuter any non-colossal jack in a single turn with the shield is incredibly underrated. It's pretty crap against Hordes, but it's still sturdy enough to maybe last a turn in a zone.
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cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on Jul 18, 2017 16:29:49 GMT
Sadly i dont think cygnar has good counter to ghost fleet. Give the match up to a ret fellow :-) We have to little access to good remove from play.
If it falls on you i see three aprouches:
- all out assassination. So you feed her your army and ignore all other win condition. Cain3 may do it. Sloan depend on terrain. If he gets a forrest sloan may be done. - try for attration with rfp and maybe some assassination, siege may indeed be the man. I think your list is solid. There is however all reason to belive that the new triump wont be legal before ETC. ETA seems to be oktober. - overwhelm her by killing more than she can bring back or remove the reevers in middel so the shooting folk are out of command when they get back. Nemo3 og haley2 might do it. Cain1 in tempest theme may be an option.
The problem is also dennys feat. It will cripple you If you play somethink other than haley2.
Overall i would bet on a normal h2 list in storm division. If you dont want that, go for your siege list. You may consider switching some jacks for a stormwall. Siege is also vournable since he can be knocked down.
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Post by sludgeogre on Jul 18, 2017 18:05:54 GMT
My buddy that started with me bought a full Ghost Fleet set up that is crazy scary with how much pressure it can put on you. Totally destroyed my Stryker2 list, but I walked right through him with this Caine1 list. I know he's not popular, but he was a blast into Ghost Fleet. His Feat took out his entire crew of Ghost Raiders and at least half of his three crews of Revenant Crews. This left Terminus open for an assassination which I pulled off with a Stormclad. I got lucky that he only got a few tough rolls, but I planned to win this way and it worked like a charm. He probably could have positioned differently and survived it, but we will have to try that again some day.
Caine1, Storm Division -Squire (free) -Stormclad x2 -Firely Journeyman Warcaster -Firefly Major Katherine Laddermore Stormblade captain (free) Storm Lances (max) Stormblade Infantry (max) -CA -Storm Gunners x3
The free focus on the Stormclads was an enormous help with how focus starved Caine was getting, and Storm Lances with 20 arm are nearly impossible for crews to remove from a zone.
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Post by darkangeldentist on Jul 19, 2017 8:10:10 GMT
I thought about Caine1, but I thought he would just get knocked down and killed. I guess his personal threat and the lists massive infantry removal is enough to somehow prevent this? The turn of Stealth from Ace due to infiltrate can be key in a lot of games so that Caine can actually be aggressive for a turn and do work but for the most part it's usually possible to just hide Caine behind stormwall for most of the game in conjunction with a piece of scenery (like a forest) to prevent Denny's arc nodes from letting her knock him down. The list has two instances of shadow fire and two ways to remove stealth from a model so Denny can have a hard time staying safe herself. The threat ranges that Caine and the list projects make it very hard and dangerous for her to operate aggressively. Since it can shoot quite deep into the Cryx battle line you can also quite effectively mitigate it's ability to apply pressure at range. The main think that keeps Caine alive though is staying tucked up behind Stormwall (and usually a cloud) to stop Denny or her arc nodes getting line of sight to him. So long as I've got shadow fire in the list Caine is quite happy shooting through stormwall with snipe on himself. One nice trick that definitely helps, even though it doesn't stop the recursion is to ignore the revenant riflemen and kill the grunts and leader. If the opponent has decided to hide a model so far back that even sniped guns cannot reach it then forcing the cryx player to promote to that model leaves all the rifles out of command so they won't be doing anything next turn. From the Cygnar side of the game the worry is that Caine will get knocked down and just shot to death but looking at it from the Cryx perspective they've got similar issues trying to keep Denny alive in the face of those guns and knowing that Denny is almost as squishy as Caine the whole thing gets quite dicey from a match up point of view. As I said in my original post, my opponent at the ETC took one look at my lists, knew I would be playing Caine and decided that Coven would be the better bet. It's also worth noting that Coven have perhaps an even stronger passive spell assassination threat due to the ridiculous levels of focus they have and perfect conjunction. Despite this they only got one opportunity all game to make a credible attempt on Caine but it came too late as I'd managed to kill one of the witches by then. In the early game it's very hard to get an arc node far enough around to see past stormwall and terrain to arc spells onto Caine.
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cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on Jul 19, 2017 9:54:12 GMT
The problem i see with coven is that they can be super good on scenario in sr2017. Some of those scenarios are very live. Unshure If cains or siege can handel those.
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