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Post by Cryptix on Jul 17, 2017 23:50:53 GMT
After collecting some data based on what people online and in my club have told me, I've tried to help correct the most egregious of the underpowered units in the armory of Menoth. Tell me what you think!
Exemplar Bastions: - Add the Endurance in Hardship special rule (Endurance in Hardship - for every damaged or destroyed model in this model's unit it gains +3 ARM) - Change the text to Sanguine Bond to the following: When a model in this unit is destroyed all models in the unit immediately heal D3 damage.
Exemplar Cinerators: - Add the Vengeful Strike special rule (Vengeful Strike - When a model in this unit is destroyed by an enemy attack, immediately afterwards each model in the unit may make a single basic melee attack)
Holy Zealots - Increase RAT to 5 - Increase the RNG of Fire Bombs to 8
Deliverer Skyhammers - Increase Skyhammer POW to 12, add High Explosive
Exemplar Bastion Senechal - Reduce PC to 5 - Replace Leadership [Bastion Exemplars] with Desperate Pace [Medium-based Exemplar]
These are just some initial ideas, anything broken? I don't know a lot about Menoth and I'd love to hear your ideas.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jul 17, 2017 23:53:58 GMT
So the last Bastion is Armor 28 (31 if he's damaged)? Feels legit.
I think they just want bastions to be 8 Boxes with a distance of 5 for sanguine bond.
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Post by paradox on Jul 18, 2017 0:01:21 GMT
Will never happen, but Id really like to name-swap bastions and cinerators. The the halb weilders be the faster, aggressive linebreakers, and the sword and board guys be slower, more durable pieces.
In that vein, give nu-Bastions Shield Guard and +3 wounds OR expand bond range back to in formation and Wall of Steel. Drop Set Defense. Attack profile like cinerators. ARM17
Give nu-Cinerators Unyeilding or Battle Driven. Attack profile like bastions. ARM16
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 18, 2017 0:06:42 GMT
After collecting some data based on what people online and in my club have told me, I've tried to help correct the most egregious of the underpowered units in the armory of Menoth. Tell me what you think! Exemplar Bastions: - Add the Endurance in Hardship special rule (Endurance in Hardship - for every damaged or destroyed model in this model's unit it gains +3 ARM) - Change the text to Sanguine Bond to the following: When a model in this unit is destroyed all models in the unit immediately heal D3 damage. The last one would have ARM 28 and access to healing, not to mention pretty much this exact thing was removed from the game in the transition. + 1 ARM at the most, and IIRC it's time to drop sanguine entirely and find something new.Exemplar Cinerators: - Add the Vengeful Strike special rule (Vengeful Strike - When a model in this unit is destroyed by an enemy attack, immediately afterwards each model in the unit may make a single basic melee attack) I disagree that Cinerators even need help beyond getting a point or two cheaper. This, on its own, runs counter to some of our abilities while stacking alarmingly well with vengeance, becoming nigh untouchable to melee infantry and even lighter armored warjacks. probably too strong.Holy Zealots - Increase RAT to 5 - Increase the RNG of Fire Bombs to 8 They're supposed to be garbage who can die twice. they need to be cheaper, not better.Deliverer Skyhammers - Increase Skyhammer POW to 12, add High Explosive Effective, but both boring and extremely unlikely. I would vastly prefer the primary target be dealt 3d6 damage for large bases and 4d6 for huge, with mandatory CRA if necessary. Point the masses of big explodey rockets at the big explodey targets.Exemplar Bastion Senechal - Reduce PC to 5 - Replace Leadership [Bastion Exemplars] with Desperate Pace [Medium-based Exemplar] Bastion senny is perfectly fine, but bastions don't tend to survive to use his abilities well. Any changes to the seneschal must follow a fix of the bastions themselves to make sense. In the meantime, his cost seems high but is actually OK when you remember his drive. On a sanctifier, it's terrifying.These are just some initial ideas, anything broken? I don't know a lot about Menoth and I'd love to hear your ideas. I like the concept but be aware this kind of thing is blatant wishlisting unlikely to be considered by PP even if they see it..........aaaaaand comments in bold.
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blakeh1
Junior Strategist
Posts: 181
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Post by blakeh1 on Jul 18, 2017 0:27:13 GMT
Bastions just need to go back to 8 wounds or at least swap Set Defense (which sucks on a DEF 11 model) for Defensive line or Unyielding or some kind of ARM bonus. They really need more ARM not DEF.
The MK III change to Sanguine Bond really limits it use anyway (model has to be within 3" of it to spread the damage)
So you have to run them all bunched up because if spread them out you only get 1 or 2 damage transfer targets
A +2 ARM bonus for having to stay so close in B2B would probably be best
Bastion Seneschal really doesn't need a change if Bastions are worth taking and can survive having the unit wiped off the board in one round
Delivers should lose CRA and get high explosive (basically so the AOEs are around POW 10).
The Deliver Arms master should swap combat coordination for something that lets them choose direction for the deviation in addition to arcing fire
Their threat should really be to infantry and back line support
Zealots really just need the +2 to hit part of the prayer back.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 18, 2017 0:40:12 GMT
NOOOOOO! don't take away deliverer CRA, it's what makes them useable.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jul 18, 2017 1:01:05 GMT
Long story short: yes, that is all broken (ok, not all, but most). Won't go into why, because that's already been covered.
Personally, I'd suggest the following:
Bastions - Replace Set Defense with Defensive Line. Give Defensive Strike. Keep at 5 boxes (though could see this changed, but would want to test these changes before undoing the HP drop).
Cinerators - no change. They are well-priced for their stats, any change would affect price. Would rather see a Senny come out for them.
Zealots - Decrease points to 7/12.
Bastion Senny - no change. His problem is that Bastions don't survive, which means he doesn't need a change, they do.
Deliverers - idk. Best I can think of is make the blast damage POW8. I think High Explosive is a bit much, but could see it. I do NOT see getting both High Explosive AND POW12.
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thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
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Post by thelat on Jul 18, 2017 1:24:23 GMT
I like the healing ability. The rest is on crack.
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Post by dmorktry on Jul 18, 2017 4:00:02 GMT
I would support a 3" Sanguine Bond if we got an ARM increase + another defensive ability for being within 3". Bastions can be a tight brick that weather their way up the battlefield before dispersing to deal moderate damage but make themselves more vulnerable or have them camp a zone.
Cinerators just need something to make them interesting but also suffer regardless from the meta and even if we entered an age where anti-infantry was crucially relevant, we've got a couple better choices before they show up. Maybe give us a Seneschal or UA that can drop an ash cloud, allows them to run up the field with a backup if they can't find cover and clouds are valuable enough to always warrant some consideration when list building.
Zealots and Deliverers need a unit wide CRA that only does blast damage but has increased RAT and covers a wide enough area to justify not just fishing for direct hits.
Bastion Sen just needs better Bastions.
We need a majority of our warjack point costs reevaluated and a majority of our casters could benefit from replacing one spell for a slightly better one without too much of a problem.
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martini
Junior Strategist
Posts: 119
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Post by martini on Jul 18, 2017 7:32:15 GMT
Lets also think about themes.
Jack theme: Allow Choir as a free unit slot.
Exemplar theme: Remove +2" deployment, Add advance move to exemplar models.
Flameguard theme: Remove ambush from Daughters, Add ambush to 1 Flameguard unit of your choice.
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Post by paradox on Jul 18, 2017 10:32:22 GMT
Flameguard theme: Remove ambush from Daughters, Add ambush to 1 Flameguard unit of your choice. You shut your whore mouth.
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martini
Junior Strategist
Posts: 119
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Post by martini on Jul 18, 2017 10:40:49 GMT
Flameguard theme: Remove ambush from Daughters, Add ambush to 1 Flameguard unit of your choice. You shut your whore mouth. What? Wouldnt You like to see ambushing assaulting cleansers or ambushing charging flamebringers?
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jul 18, 2017 10:56:23 GMT
You shut your whore mouth. What? Wouldnt You like to see ambushing assaulting cleansers or ambushing charging flamebringers? No. No I would not. As best as I can recall, most/all ambush units have a threat range, from ambush, of around 10-14". (Daughters are 13.5", Bog Trog Ambushers are 14", Mechanithralls 12.5", etc). As such, it is a reasonable strategy to protect oneself by forting up in the center, sacrificing positioning for safety. Ambushing cleansers would threaten a whopping 21". There is no protecting oneself from that.
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martini
Junior Strategist
Posts: 119
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Post by martini on Jul 18, 2017 11:00:55 GMT
Then what about kossite woodsmen? 19"
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Jul 18, 2017 11:22:43 GMT
Then what about kossite woodsmen? 19" with POW 10. That doesn't ignore cover/concealment. And doesn't get around shield guard. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see ambushing Cleansers, but they would be a little too good.
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