Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 17, 2017 21:23:01 GMT
I think that if there is a peasant theme, it will not include the monks. My thinking on this is that monks and paladins do the same thing albeit through different stats - mainly score outlying flags in SR 2017. I hope the VoJ makes it into the theme, I mean it is essentially a big movable miracle device, if anyone needs to see the miracles it is the peasants. Don't forget that the monks mingle with the common folk, so I wouldn't be surprised at seeing them. I doubt that we'll see VoJ here. It just doesn't seem right to me and I can't put my finger on why. I'd love to see Idrians here too, but they tread on the toes of Deliverers. If they end up here, expect them to go through CID and end up getting toned down. Because the peasants, even the most faithfully zealous ones, probably don't merit that kind of resource or sanctity. I agree VOJ won't show up, and with retaliatory paladins it probably shouldn't: I have to wonder how those mix. Idrians should be able to go anywhere, even creator's Might, I think, if the CID sticks. FWIW, I think it will.
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Post by dmorktry on Jul 17, 2017 22:42:55 GMT
Unless we get some way to resolve having to do an absurd amount of AoEs a turn, it won't be viable, they simply eat up too much time during timed games, hell, even casual games it's a slog to resolve a unit of zealots. Only suggestion I can offer is giving Zealots CRA but that's the solution to every AoE troop which makes me think AoE troops are just fundamentally flawed.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jul 17, 2017 22:46:49 GMT
Unless we get some way to resolve having to do an absurd amount of AoEs a turn, it won't be viable, they simply eat up too much time during timed games, hell, even casual games it's a slog to resolve a unit of zealots. Only suggestion I can offer is giving Zealots CRA but that's the solution to every AoE troop which makes me think AoE troops are just fundamentally flawed. Considering the bombardiers have CRA, and still don't get much play....yeah. What was wrong with Combining AOE CRAs into larger sized AOEs? Especially if they where placeable?
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Post by WantonRanger on Jul 18, 2017 0:56:38 GMT
making zealots work is going to be an uphill struggle at present (due to AOEs and poor armor craking and being a poor unit generally). Not to mention Paladins would be a very expensive screening/delivery tool.
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Post by dmorktry on Jul 18, 2017 3:27:40 GMT
Unless we get some way to resolve having to do an absurd amount of AoEs a turn, it won't be viable, they simply eat up too much time during timed games, hell, even casual games it's a slog to resolve a unit of zealots. Only suggestion I can offer is giving Zealots CRA but that's the solution to every AoE troop which makes me think AoE troops are just fundamentally flawed. Considering the bombardiers have CRA, and still don't get much play....yeah. What was wrong with Combining AOE CRAs into larger sized AOEs? Especially if they where placeable? Hell, it's not the most intuitive rule but there should be a system where the unit only gets one shot but that AoE increases in tiers based on the living units that are also in range. I highly doubt these Zealots are baseball pitching these firebombs, they more likely operate on a saturated fire method all throwing their bombs together and hoping at least a few matter. The same could be said for Deliverers. Or even, there should be an option called barrage (not sure if name overlaps), it's a unit CRA that's all blast damage but +2 RAT and a 5 inch AoE (or maybe D3 3 inch AoE placed via scatter that are placed around an initial 3 inch), either for Zealots or Deliverers but I know more about Zealots. There you have the option to thin a crowd while still keeping the flexibility of single shots. You could even make it a mini-feat, I only see AoE troops being effective if you give them a quick, safe, but not necessarily devastating option. The end result being, I'll take more consistent Zealots that don't take up half my turn activating over rolling out every AoE because the chance of a very rare spike is too important to pass up albeit, again, rare. Regardless, I will eat my hat if this new theme becomes a cornerstone in PoM going forward, I simply don't have the confidence that PP can make a fun, engaging, and competitive theme out of Zealots, Paladins, and (I'm assuming) Deliverers plus a few other pieces given their track record of things being dully par for PoM in MK3 (with a couple exceptions like our character jacks and a handful of solos and units). But if I'm wrong then that's something I'm ready for. EDIT: The only real use I've found for zealots is with Vinny and with Penitence and the UA and just rush them up the board but as effective as that is, it's still too many points.
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Post by TryHarderPP on Jul 18, 2017 8:57:02 GMT
I really hope the they put a bit of effort into this/one of the future themes. New units/less common mechanics please...
I don't want to spend a year watching them create a tonne of new units/models for other armies subfaction/themes before watching them just group all our faction models by their fluff with no interesting changes.
I have very little faith that PP has the drive in this faction to deliver something interesting and yes the paladin on a horse was cool but that's all it was... a paladin, put on a horse. If it firstly, isn't hugely overcosted and secondly gives the rest of the paladin's retaliatory strike then maybe it has a bit more value... but otherwise it just seems like stodge to fill up this next theme.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jul 19, 2017 2:07:08 GMT
So to test the armor-cracking of Zealots, played the list I posted before (Feora3, Hand of Judgement, Vigilant, max Flamebringers, 3 units max Zealots + UAs, min choir, 2 mechaniks, wrack, heirophant) vs the following tonight.
Saeryn/Rhyas2 (Oracles) Blightbringer Nightlurker Protector Seraph Wrongeye & Snapjaw (was testing for CID) Blackfrost Shard 3 Shepherds 2 Forsaken
Negatives - so many bodies, that wanted to spread out due to Blightbringer's AOE, made it very difficult to maneuver. no good way to protect Feora3, resulting in her getting assassinated (mid-range odds, backed up and replayed after), then I conceded after failed assassination run. Positives - Zealots with +2 prayer and incite (Hand had died by this point) get a ton of work done. 9 Zealots from a single unit (1 and Monolith bearer stayed back for safety) managed to kill the Protector, the Seraph, and the Blackfrost shard. Second unit got 7 bombs at Saeryn, but without any direct hitting and middling damage rolls, she survived to transfer pretty much all to the Nightlurker, who lived on 1 box. So many bodies, at least with SR2016, meant I could have played for scenario and, so long as I avoided assassination, would have had that locked. Flamebringers did their job really well. Can't speak to survivability of Zealots, they never got attacked.
Overall it's a combo I'd be willing to test again, but is poor against a melee assassination threat. That said, I would very much like the theme to help the zealots somehow, as they are certainly too expensive/fragile/underwhelming to be a decent center-point for a theme.
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Post by macdaddy on Jul 19, 2017 2:47:42 GMT
Hey, I'm not complying running a big Testament list with Zealots and Idrians and deliverers to flood the board with Bodies all while recursion and throwing ranged aoes and High pow CRAs all over the board
Like this: (assuming free solos for ever 20 points of Zealots, Idrians or Deliverers) Testamemt -Hierophant -Vanquisher -Guardian min Chior 2 Max Zealots with UA Max Deliverers Max Idrians With Free UA Sunburst (free) Delivered arms master Dartan Vilimon (free)
That's over 50 models on the table. God help whoever is in range of testamemt if someone manages to kill all those bodies is 56 focus to use!
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Post by dmorktry on Jul 19, 2017 3:48:53 GMT
I guess I haven't considered what new units we'd get but I wouldn't put that number very high, probably a solo, a unit, and maybe we get out structure here.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jul 19, 2017 3:53:45 GMT
I'd be okay with that honestly. Like i don't want to have a rediculous amount of new models released. I prefer the slow drip. But based on the other theme forces it doesn't seem like we'll be getting the slow drip.
It will be a sudden influx of new models and I'm gonna get overwhelmed.
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Post by dmorktry on Jul 19, 2017 4:35:09 GMT
I made that guess fully acknowledging their release policy for themes, I can see two units if one is the paladin unit and one follows closer to the zealot angle. Solos, well, we're getting the dragoon early, the solo released in tandem with theme will probably be an in faction alternative to Piper, not the same abilities but comparable. The structure is of course going to be a holy monument OR something involving fire (or the most likely: both), I don't know too much about structures or to what extent they'll affect the table so I can't say for sure what it'd do.
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Post by WantonRanger on Jul 19, 2017 8:15:00 GMT
I'd be okay with that honestly. Like i don't want to have a rediculous amount of new models released. I prefer the slow drip. But based on the other theme forces it doesn't seem like we'll be getting the slow drip. It will be a sudden influx of new models and I'm gonna get overwhelmed. I don't mind about not too many new units as long as they CID some of our current underperforming units or just add a few solos to change/add some mechanics. The problem being is that PP is just very slow at most things and we will probably end up waiting a year+ for the needed CID, which unfortunately pushes new units into being the agents of change.
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Post by dicebedamned on Jul 19, 2017 12:32:32 GMT
The structure could be an oil refinery lol
I don't foresee PP fixing many models in PoM. I think like with Northkin CID at the moment, they will just release a bunch of new stuff that is much more competitive and interesting, thus people stop complaining about the broken stuff. Makes sense for them £ wise...
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 19, 2017 12:41:12 GMT
The structure could be an oil refinery lol I don't foresee PP fixing many models in PoM. I think like with Northkin CID at the moment, they will just release a bunch of new stuff that is much more competitive and interesting, thus people stop complaining about the broken stuff. Makes sense for them £ wise... only short term. That kind of business model tends to make fans angy, and then you don't get new players when the old ones are sour about it.
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Post by dicebedamned on Jul 19, 2017 12:44:41 GMT
Oh I agree entirely, just look at GW. It is one of the reasons I have slowed up on my WMH spending... I feel like I've been down this road before...
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