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Post by streetpizza on Jul 20, 2017 15:51:25 GMT
This news actually makes me sad. Wolds can use some love but a general +2 str from the stone shaper solves most of their problems. A full Tharn CID would be much more valuable at this point in my opinion. Lord of the feast, death wolves, blood pack, wolf riders, wolf rider solo and blood weavers all need some love. Making at least one tharn infantry option capable of threatening heavy armor would also go a long way to fixing the problems with that theme. IMO most The the that's issues outside of blood pack are easy fixes. Wold riders need better defensive stats or Prey. Ravagers need +1 S or brutal charge, Trackers are fine. Bloodweavers I think are actually fine they just lack targets. The White mane needs to hit harder like ravagers and the shaman I think would see play if ravagers and blood pack got better. I actually think the night witch is in the same boat as the Bloodweavers. The issues definitely easy to fix but I'm saying that they're way more pressing than the issues with wolds. Having excellent wolds gives us more beast options when we're not AS lacking for good beast options right now. We are severely lacking in depth for infantry options. As for blood weavers though, stealth and pow 9 with gang is fine for the points but their abilities are lacking in application: - Blood burst is unlikely to pay dividends and was always an afterthought for them even in MKII has its uses but very niche. - Grievous is welcome but again doesn't see much use as their main targets usually aren't sporting tough and why would you send them against jacks or beasts? This is not a wasted ability just very niche for them. - Life stealer is just 100% wasted space on the card. This needs to be replaced with ... something? I would love to see weapon master vs living come back but then I think their points cost would need to rise and maybe that would be a death sentance for the unit. I don't know. As I wrote all that out I started to see that maybe you're right ... I may be just locked into MKII mind set on them and for 8pts they may be just fine if uninspired.
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Post by macdaddy on Jul 20, 2017 16:44:14 GMT
I agree that blood burst and Life stealer are pretty bad. But for killing swathes of tough infantry or just to plop Grevious on a beat or jack as well as being cheap and hitting moderately hard on a charge...they'd be way better with Ambush...but replacing life stealer with Dismember or WM against living would be nice. I would pay 9 points for that
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Post by Dev Null on Jul 20, 2017 18:17:42 GMT
I would love to see weapon master vs living come back but then I think their points cost would need to rise and maybe that would be a death sentance for the unit. I don't know. I hate to sidetrack... but we're already speculating about improvements to infantry in a Wold thread, so I'm not going to beat myself up over it too much. I would love to see Weapon Master removed from the game, or at least drastically re-worked, so I really hope they don't add it to the Weavers. Weapon Master is just broken. Adding 3.5 to the STR of a model would be insanely huge by itself, and already means that a lot of WM infantry have to have reduced STR to compensate, but WM is far more broken than even that. It also hugely increases the odds of any crit effect, and vastly increases the variation of damage rolls, so when you get spikes you get MUCH bigger spikes. And since it stacks with boosting on the charge, it gets even more broken when you're rolling 4 dice. I'd love to see it converted to +2 STR, or removed from everything except a few key solos, or at least made into a boost so it didn't stack with charging.
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Post by streetpizza on Jul 20, 2017 19:18:16 GMT
Weapon master is the equalizer which makes some infantry good vs harder targets. Without the option to boost natively for infantry its one of very few ways to get that into the game. I do understand your concerns about spiking but that's the trade off and why weapon master is probably the single most powerful ability you can give a model. It's also why you see very few units/models in the game with weapon master to begin with.
Nitpick time: Weapon master does nothing for improving odds of crit effects since that only happens on hit and not on damage.
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Post by Dev Null on Jul 20, 2017 20:58:10 GMT
weapon master is probably the single most powerful ability you can give a model. My point exactly. There really shouldn't be a single most powerful ability. Far better to have a collection of good things that you can do in a granular fashion - like adding bonuses to stats - and then, if you're really intent on making something OP, push a few of those up a few notches each. What is Weapon Master supposed to represent that isn't covered by normal stats anyways? That they're skilled? Bump MAT. That they're strong? Bump STR. That their skill with their weapon allows them to do more damage? Bump POW. The way the current mechanic works it seems to represent their ability to occasionally fluke into huge damage; give them a crit effect if that's what you want. But by combining a bunch of those together into a single binary thing like the current WM, you lock yourself into an extreme all-or-nothing choice. And you make it needlessly complicated to figure out how dangerous something is; you can't compare the P+S of two models, because one of them might be rolling more dice. You are absolutely correct; don't know what I was thinking. Mostly a moot point anyways, given the scarcity of crit effects on mooks. Which I still think would be a better way to represent fluke damage: Crit: Boost Damage. Or Crit: +2 POW for this attack.
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Post by chillychinaman on Jul 20, 2017 21:06:07 GMT
better way to represent fluke damage: Crit: Boost Damage. FYI it's called Critical Brutal. Gun Mages have it.
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Post by Dev Null on Jul 20, 2017 23:28:28 GMT
Thanks. I thought there was something like that, just couldn't remember the name...
Which is funny, actually, since I'm pretty much all Circle when I can get a game at all these days, but _last night_ was literally the first time in years I cracked out my old Cygnar stuff, and used Crit: Brutal on a gunmage.
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Post by macdaddy on Jul 20, 2017 23:36:07 GMT
We should probably start another thread to talk about WM be a good thread on the general forums in my opinion As far as Being back on topic with enrage for wolds and a new CiD for bones, I think this is our chance to really get the watcher and guardian back into a position of usefulness. The guardian with enrage really just needs a good defensive animus now (please bring back flesh of clay :,{ ....) And the watcher may see play with a points decrease and maybey give him Mat 6. Then he would be pretty decent under bradigus. If he goes up to Mat 6 and goes down to 7 or 8 points would you think people would start taking him? Under brad, with enrage a watcher at Max synergy is hitting at Pow 17. You give him a free charge via hunters mark and that's a good dent in a Heavy jack or beast. He also still has a Pow 12 gun and can be Arm 21 and cast his animus for free with Brad. Seems like a solid 8 point package to me.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jul 21, 2017 1:52:34 GMT
Meh, CID for Circle has to start somewhere, Wolds are as good a place as any. The problem I have with CID as a tool for fixing Circle is that we have so. much. crap. spread across all of our subthemes. Just off the top of my head:
Living Beasts: - the satyrs all underperform, though the shadowhorn is close to OK - feral and stalker are probably a point overcosted, as is Ghetorix - winter argus - rotterhorn - razorwing - Storm Raptor - Brennos...maybe? Haven't played him enough to know, heard very varying things about him.
Wolds (note: pre-enrage): - Wold Guardian is slow and pillowfisted. use-impaired animus. - Wold Warden is niche and pillowfisted - Woldwatcher. nuff said. - Stoneward and Woldstalkers - Stone Keeper UA...does nothing to make him worth adding 66% to the price of the unit
Wolf-Sworn: - Morraig - Reeve Hunter is unimpressive except as a cheap war wold trigger - Wolves do not impress except with ambush (which I dislike as a crutch for them) - Skinwalkers are very meh - Death Wolves -probably the subtheme that's closest to okay at the moment
Tharn/Devourer Wurm - LOTF. yuuuuuuuupppp. - Whitemane/Ravager boat - die too easily, and/or don't hit hard enough - Bloodweavers - Nuala - Blood Pack. - Wolf Riders/Champion
Blackclads/Druids - Druids are extremely situational and one-dimensional - Druid UA is crap, enough to warrant it's own entry - Mistriders are infantry blender #12 in-faction - Una1 lacks access to any beasts she actually wants to take, and has skornergy between her small control area and her spell list
That's a lot of CID cycles that we're looking at, even if we assume that some are getting lumped in together (I assume Living Beasts will get packaged with some other theme, probably blackclads, and there's some overlap between subthemes a la woldstalkers/blackclads and Death Wolves/Tharn, but it's going to be a while.)
Where we get started doesn't matter nearly as much as how quickly CID rolls out.
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Post by macdaddy on Jul 21, 2017 13:06:35 GMT
Yeah we do have a lot of poop to clean out in faction. But all in time I guess maybey the CiD will be 2 themes?...
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Post by Lord_Randall on Jul 21, 2017 18:40:40 GMT
Weavers need finisher instead of healing, ravagers need brutal charge, trakers need repo3, wolfraiders need def 15 and pow11 on javelin by default, bloodpack need boosted bow shoots with corpse.
Tharn fixed.
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Post by Forsaken on Jul 27, 2017 8:36:38 GMT
Is there actual confirmation that druids are next in CID? They have been pretty tight lipped on what's on deck. If so I expect we will be seeing our next theme (probably Blackclads). This makes me hopeful because the last several CID's have been fantastic in my opinion. The devs have really taken the feedback to heart and players are being heard.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Jul 27, 2017 9:10:09 GMT
[...] If so I expect we will be seeing our next theme (probably Blackclads). [...] I'm a little confused as to why druids aren't allowed in Bones, but I would like to see a Druids theme.
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Post by jisidro on Jul 27, 2017 11:11:23 GMT
I don't believe so... In fact, someone (Not PP) mentioned (twitter? FB?) that Circle won't get a CID this year...
I never read anything about druids being in the next, or any, CID...
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