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Post by beardowski on Mar 9, 2017 18:09:39 GMT
I am not getting the most out of my Dhunian Knot, but I do so the value in having them in a beast heavy list. I know with more practice I will learn how to place them better and have a better sense of how to use their abilities in the most effective way. Could the board offer some suggestions and insight as to how to use the Knot in an optimum way?
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Post by Trollock on Mar 9, 2017 18:57:12 GMT
I have started loving them in my double bomber lists. If you do not have a hit buff (like Grissel 2 knocking things down), the bombers may miss heavies from time to time. Having them boost to hit is not what you want to do against DEF 10-12 heavies, and the Knot allows you to gamble a bit. Troll to hit with the first attack. If it hits, you boost damage. If it misses, reroll. If it misses still, buy another fully boosted attack. The chances of hitting 2 out of 3 chances at a 5 is very good. Even if you need a 7, the chances are good enough for me. Another great use is if you have a spell that the runebearer wants to cast and hit with. Mortality, Befuddle or what ever. Rerolling is super good when you can not boost, but the target is only mid level DEF. The same goes for a caster who wants to cast an offensive spell and doesnt want to boost. A rerollable 6 to hit is good enough odds in most cases. Finally, if you have a model with a powerful attack that can not boost, like a Thumper or a War wagon, the re-roll is great. If you can land the knock down with a thumper, your bombers can murder the floored target at range  The same principal applies when you charge with a heavy. You really do not want to miss that charge attack, cause that changes the math big time, but boosting to hit when you need a 6 feels wasteful. Having a re-roll is very powerful. In all of the above cases, if you DO hit, you can always reroll that 3 on the damage roll |
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Post by TrollBossJusmu on Mar 9, 2017 19:02:45 GMT
For me personally it drops down to army composition. If i have knot involved it usually mean that i have caster that is somewhat dependent on spells to go true like Grim2 with mortality or Grissel2 (don't want miss those gun shots) and ranged heavy beast composition like double bomber or bomber + x. I haven't found that much value from knot when using melee heavy beast comp. Healing beasts happens so rarely that i would not depend on that at all.
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513 
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Post by joedj on Mar 9, 2017 21:53:21 GMT
Dhunian Knot is my favorite support, even more than the KSB.
Competitively: Missing the Charge attack from a Dire/slag is like -10 damage to your target. Ouch. Rather, lack of ouch.
Casual: Re-rolling for Crit effects makes for memorable successful cornercase tactics!
Puppet Master being a 10" auto hit on friendlies makes DK usually safe in the back lines. I usually don't position for Wild Communion unless I'm near a Far-striked Impaler/Bomber. I have Healed warbeasts' Spirit, since it prevents my Warlock from having to activate first.
DK Puppet Masters on Grissel2, a Bomber, and a Slag makes for an impressive anti-WJ kit.
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Post by beardowski on Mar 9, 2017 22:00:20 GMT
I gather from this discussion that their strong suit is re-rolls making healing a secondary, or backup option. Essentially is their healing ability a small bonus that is only used when you happen to be in position, as opposed to actively seeking a placement where they can aid a warbeast?
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Post by grabsnikk on Mar 9, 2017 22:05:38 GMT
Their healing ability is almost never used when you take them in POD theme as you are usually taking free whelps as well which solve the healing problem anyway. Most of the time its not worth keeping them close to beasts as they can die to blasts/leaps easily. In every game I have played them so far, I have never needed to use their healing. Only the Puppet Master has been used.
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Post by Warsmith on Mar 9, 2017 23:42:17 GMT
I see the healing as a cool bonus ability, but their real value is the re-rolls. Like has been said, re-rolling for a crit or even just a hit is monumental. I like to keep one free for range casters like Grissel 2, Gunnbjorn, Grim, Madrak. It's a real advantage for them to not always having to boost but instead use the re-roll.
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Post by Trollock on Mar 10, 2017 9:31:59 GMT
I have still never used the healing ability, and i have only used the fury management capacity once. I have actually stabbed ppl TWICE with them though. Puppet Strings is where its at  |
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Post by knapsen on Mar 10, 2017 9:45:44 GMT
Also never used healing ability. 'Puppet Master' for Grissel2 and her two Bomber wracked down a Behemoth under Harkevich feat.
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Post by cayterpius on Mar 11, 2017 2:19:17 GMT
So Puppet Master is where it's at. 3 of those for 6 points ... worth it?
Curious. Have never played them. Gut reaction is too expensive and medium bases are tricky to get in amongst the pack to place PM where you want it. Also, victim stats.
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Post by Trollock on Mar 11, 2017 13:03:26 GMT
So Puppet Master is where it's at. 3 of those for 6 points ... worth it? Curious. Have never played them. Gut reaction is too expensive and medium bases are tricky to get in amongst the pack to place PM where you want it. Also, victim stats. 6 points IS a lot, but they make certain builds work (like double bombers with no external to hit buff). Also, as i understand it, you usually play 50 points, and at 75 you have a bit more room for actual support models. The victim stats are of no consequence. They stand 10" behind your ranged beasts, so nothing should ever be able to attack them. If you find concealment, they are DEF 15 vs shooting, and that is a good stat line imo. It is a rare thing to see some one trying to kill them, and if they do, it is probably so late in the game that you have gotten your value out of them. They are certainly not for every list, but i think they are very well balanced. Some times they are the right choice, and some times they are not |
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Post by cayterpius on Mar 11, 2017 13:32:23 GMT
Right on all counts. Thanks for the insight.
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Mar 11, 2017 16:37:23 GMT
So much of success in this game can depend on a pivotal tactic or attack. Example 1: Last night my Amon went on a Synergy+Mobility assisted charge to Assassinate Abby2. Statistically it was a win with first * attack needing a 5 to hit (with KD) at dice+1 damage, then two purchased auto hit attacks. Abby had 1 transfer target at 5 health. First attack? Rolled a 3 for Frak's sake?!! Onlookers commiserated. Puppet Master likely would have enabled me to win that game. Instead Amon eaten by dragonspawn. Example 2: MtK with Puppet Master charges Juggernaut, easily dispatches it, Killshot into Shocktroopers, hits leader, but misses the CA officer, re-roll hits him, don't boost on either damage rolls. Now this mass of bodies can't run or charge or Shield Wall and Butcher3/Ruin cannot maneuver through/around those 40mms to charge my MtK. (MtK also munches most of a Kodiak that same turn). Taking out two Khador 'jacks with minimal reprisals was predicated on a successful Deafen of that unit, and led to a relatively easy win at the end. (Eventually Butcher feats to kill MtK, the rest of my army gang tackles him. Not a single Khador warjack on the field before end of game though.) Just be sure to almost always, always, always activate DK first! |
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Post by droopingpuppy on Mar 13, 2017 13:46:27 GMT
Victim stat is only issue if you expect some combat role to the model. Full support model such as Dhunian Knot are able to hide behind of the others instead, so their victim stat have not much a meaning.
Unlike most shooting jack and beasts, Dire Troll Bomber needs to max its fury limit, by use Far Strike, Reload[1] and boost two damage rolls so there is no space to boost the attack roll. Even against DEF 12 you can miss, so any caster without the accuracy fix welcome Puppet Master if they ever think about to use the Bomber.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Mar 15, 2017 14:13:59 GMT
Rerolling frenzy checks might not be Plan A, but with +2 THR it can be very useful if you had to run hot and can't use a whelp for whatever reason.
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The same principal applies when you charge with a heavy. You really do not want to miss that charge attack, cause that changes the math big time, but boosting to hit when you need a 6 feels wasteful. Having a re-roll is very powerful.
