cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on Jul 15, 2017 8:10:30 GMT
A pity Nobody discusses anything here and I was specifically interested what makes WM&H players want to return to 40k (as it is said many do). 40k was the first big minature wargame love for a lot of us. We left because we felt cheated with bad design, and got into a new game. The new game is now showing some cracking, and the ex have gone through rehab, so we go back. On a serious note, this has not only to do with the revamp of 40k, but also some of the changes to warmachine. Even though its better balnced than ever, some dont like the way forward with just theme lists, some of the core rules changes in MRK.3 and so on. Some people may also be tired of competitive play, and prefere 40k for the more "fun" play.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jul 16, 2017 7:34:59 GMT
That's what I thought, wh40k hardly offers aything it didn't offer in its previous editions - spectacular visuals and epicness with random gameplay and poor balance. That's why I wonder why WM&H players leave the game for that, instead of things like Guildball which is praised for its involving mechanics and challenging gameplay. (What I don't wonder is why the discusson died after being moved to "other games" despite its WM&H connection Bad, bad Swampmist! )
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cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on Jul 16, 2017 10:00:28 GMT
Yeah other games is a quiet place.
My guess is that guildball are too "simullar". Even though its not. But guess its a little metadependend where people go.
Here several formal warmahordes players have started twin new games; 40k for funsies and xwing/destiny/magic for competetive play.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jul 16, 2017 10:12:09 GMT
Yeah, in those "which system is the best" discussions" I used to say that the best gaming system is the one where you can find people to play with.
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Post by Swampmist on Jul 17, 2017 3:01:35 GMT
hey man, not my fault somebody felt the need to complain.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jul 19, 2017 4:01:48 GMT
Honestly i think if warmachine and hordes had fun narrative campaigns you could play and every player wasn't hell bent on being competative all the time we'd get a lot less people looking longingly at 40 k
I'm trying to do something about it in my local meta.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jul 24, 2017 10:20:39 GMT
Honestly i think if warmachine and hordes had fun narrative campaigns you could play and every player wasn't hell bent on being competative all the time we'd get a lot less people looking longingly at 40 k I'm trying to do something about it in my local meta. No Quarter used to have these narrative scenarios accompanied by a bit of fluff, often with special model cards. I don't know if many people played them or not, but if not then I guess it's a bit of a chicken-or-the-egg question: is it PP or the players who drive the game towards the competitive side?
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Post by W0lfBane on Jul 24, 2017 11:02:24 GMT
Honestly i think if warmachine and hordes had fun narrative campaigns you could play and every player wasn't hell bent on being competative all the time we'd get a lot less people looking longingly at 40 k I'm trying to do something about it in my local meta. No Quarter used to have these narrative scenarios accompanied by a bit of fluff, often with special model cards. I don't know if many people played them or not, but if not then I guess it's a bit of a chicken-or-the-egg question: is it PP or the players who drive the game towards the competitive side? Porque no los dos?
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jul 24, 2017 11:55:58 GMT
Well, whether it's just the players or both PP AND the players simultaneously driving the game in the competitive direction, then either way I guess we can't complain since either way us players are getting what the majority of us want. The only real problem would be if PP was pushing the game in a direction that most players don't really want.
Personally I have no idea which is the case, I'm just saying that I've never really heard anyone on the forums (or in real life) talking about the narrative games from No Quarter, so my vague impression is that even when PP provides "fluffy, non-competitive" ways to play the game, they probably don't see that much play. Again, that's just a vague impression.
I guess my point is that, while PP has in the past provided some material for fluffy non-competitive play, the player base themselves seems to be more competitive overall?
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Post by GreatBigTree on Jul 25, 2017 1:51:10 GMT
I'm a little late to the party, but I also agree that 40k 8th edition is better... by far... than 7th. I've been playing since the tail end of 2nd, and I have no rose coloured glasses for that tangled mess.
While there are still some balance issues, it's not anywhere in the area of where it was. I honestly feel like you can take a "good" list from the factions I've looked into and have a chance.
Strategy is still pretty loose. The limitations of a d6 as your randomizer are still there, but so far as I can tell, there are no "required random tables" in the game, so that's a huge benefit to everyone.
I've started WM after the 3rd edition started, and I can say I like the rules as they are. I have no problem with theme lists, though being new they're suffering from the same issues Formations had in 7th where some were unbelievably good while others are hardly worth taking, even if you used the limited models. I have every reason to believe they'll be improved / balanced over the next year or 2, so I'm not worried.
40k still scratches the get together with my buddies and have a good time itch. WMH scratches my "I want to see if I'm better than my opponent" itch better than 40k ever has. Sometimes relaxed is fun, sometimes a tight, close, hard fought game is fun. Lately I'm into WM more than 40k. I used to write articles about Imperial Guard and 40k in general, and now I don't. I'm interested in doing that for WMH... but 5 months and a dozen games in, I'm hardly an expert, and barely capable of remembering when my Vengeance is in effect, so that will have to wait.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jul 30, 2017 20:57:39 GMT
From what I hear about ETC 2017 lists, the game is just "you fly or you die" now. 200 Storm Ravens per 40 teams, more flyers in other factions. I kind of expected that alleged "new improved balance, better than ever" was just marketing bs and was really surprised with the amount of faith in the truth of it has been everywhere on the internet recently.
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Post by GreatBigTree on Aug 2, 2017 3:56:19 GMT
I haven't run into multi-flyer lists. Maybe my meta. The games I've played thus far [not too many] have been close, and felt like real games where decisions mattered. 40k is not a tactical powerhouse, but the game is much better than it was.
So far, I haven't run into games where I felt I had no chance whatsoever with a TAC list.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Aug 2, 2017 8:00:28 GMT
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Post by katio on Aug 2, 2017 22:14:55 GMT
So, as someone who just went back to 40k here's what my thoughts are.
I started 40k in 5th, it was the first wargame I'd ever played. (I now own like 8 different systems). It was great fun and I played it a ton. My buddies got me into warmachine around the release of wrath, battle engines are what made me look closer. The game itself was leagues better written than 40k. I loved that I only needed like 20-30 models. This became our main game for some time. Stopped 40k after 6th hit. Many changes were just really poor for the game and warmachine had us hooked. Then comes the final days of MKII. Privater press was beginning to feel like all the mistakes of GW. Everyone playing was trying to build bigger and bigger armies. People were way to competitive all the time. MKIII hit and I played some of it. It didn't feel the same, PP killed the community, acted like they were winging everything, and generally seemed to stop caring about the game. Insistence on war room is infuriating. This has improved but not like it was back mid MKII. So now this year GW starts to pop up again. They seem to be making an effort to be a likeable company again. 8th drops and I decided to try 40k out for the first time in years. Bought some new models, building them was an absolute joy compared to anything from PP. Immediately began remembering all the fluff which I preferred to the iron kingdoms. As for game play it feels a lot like it did back in 5th.the changes seem to be in a good direction. There are obvious influences from Sigmar. I enjoyed it. So now I have both games concurrently again. Honestly 40k is just plain more fun than warmachine. Warmachine has better written rules, but the players it attracts tend to be much more competitive. I don't want to stress out over every little thing during the rare times I'm not at work. As more of a hobbyist as well the models are just a treat. The fluff is better, part of that is me just being so sick and tired of Haley and Striker and Cygnar in general though.
So there you have it. That's why I went back. If you're of my mindset towards today's warmachine give it a go.
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Post by GreatBigTree on Aug 3, 2017 3:44:54 GMT
Well, they are making it so that flyers don't count towards being tabled, from what I hear... one problem solved?
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