Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Jul 12, 2017 14:54:47 GMT
I don't think you're alone droopingpuppy. I think many people see terrain mitigation as a critical factor to Storm Division being a high quality theme, and i think you're spot on with the notion that appended to that portion of this sentence should be "...because Storm Lances". Taking it without at least SOME manner of terrain mitigation is not something i'd be very likely to do.
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Post by Aegis on Jul 12, 2017 15:03:57 GMT
I'm totally calm, I just say that this is what will happen if the change remains like this. Also, Pagani clearly stated that Acosta should count as the single merc solo choice for Storm Division, and I have often found out that when a Dev clearly states something like that they rarely take it back, at least in the short term, so my money is on it remaining as it is. Not only that, I have also seen another post where Pagani was following Oncomingstorm on his assumption that Storm Division is the most broken thing around (despite Lances nerf) and was willing to think about changes like making an a-doc rule just for it excluding Ruphert from it, so I doubt even more that he will be willing to ear requests for "improving" Storm Division. That said, if I'm wrong and they will put him again into the list great, I will also be thrilling to try it, but for now the ones that should chill are the one excited for Acosta, since with the actual rules he won't really see any real play. I could see the balance reasons why Rhupert would be specifically excluded from Storm Division, however it leaves you in a really weird place fluff wise, unless page 1 of the Storm Knight Hand Book reads 'Screw Rhupert, that guys a knob'
It just makes no 'thematic' sense that Rhupert out of all the mercs would be shunned by Storm dudes
I was between the first saying that this whole "mercs into themes" will screw things up a lot, but honestly Ruphert into Storm Division is just a drop in the ocean of the screws. Sure, it will be bonkers, but actually the main effect of having pathfinder in the list is opening it to new casters, like Stryker2, Stryker3 (the iconic Storm Division casters...), Jakes or even Constance Blaize, not something I would call as negative for the game. It's not like Ruphert into it is much worse than WE&SJ into about any theme where they fit, or Sylis and Magic Weapon into any Khador list, etc... Expecially after the Lances nerf that I think will redimensionate the list a lot. Making a particular rule just for Storm Divion would not only be the usual double-nerf that PP is doing so often recently (without any chance to test how things are with the first nerf before), but would also be another fluff butchering as you mentioned. I can hardly see a theme where a music like Ruphert fits better. For sure not a somewhat stealthy/skirmishing army like Sons of Tempest, and even less an army made just of hearthless constructs like Heavy Metal. Musics fits in armies with heavily armored knights that charge the opponent in the front, where their music could inspire courage in their hearts. Exactly the definition of Storm Division. If Ruphert doesn't fit in Storm Division, I don't think he actually fits in any Cygnar army at all.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 12, 2017 15:19:02 GMT
"why have 2 Pow 13 weapon master attacks when I could add +2 to some other attacks?" Sometimes it's better to have hitting power in a solo that has a seperate activation. Indeed, sometimes we do need for a surgical knife, which is our weak spot if we need a melee one(and taking Storm Division removes our ranged surgical knives options as well). But, Storm Division is already struggle to face the rough terrain, and you will play a lots of units so unit wide buff would be the most beneficial thing we can choose. Storm Divisions struggle of rough terrain depends, imo. Siege 2, for instance, can get around a lot of rough terrain problems with his feat being non-linear. Maddox can get around terrain through Onslaught. Sometimes you build a list with the idea that you might be screwed by terrain randomly, but Stryker 2 with Storm Division has plenty of options. He could bring Rhupert, who is safe because of a number of small benefits. He could bring Gibbs in order to enhance his personal power and ability to contribute over the course of the game, he could bring Ragman for maximum feat and positive charge value. He could bring Acosta as a second line power solo to allow for some later game plays without having stryker be in a position to be hurt too much. There is plenty of options out there. I don't think reducing it to "X is best" will help.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jul 12, 2017 15:23:21 GMT
Indeed, sometimes we do need for a surgical knife, which is our weak spot if we need a melee one(and taking Storm Division removes our ranged surgical knives options as well). But, Storm Division is already struggle to face the rough terrain, and you will play a lots of units so unit wide buff would be the most beneficial thing we can choose. Storm Divisions struggle of rough terrain depends, imo. Siege 2, for instance, can get around a lot of rough terrain problems with his feat being non-linear. Maddox can get around terrain through Onslaught. Sometimes you build a list with the idea that you might be screwed by terrain randomly, but Stryker 2 with Storm Division has plenty of options. He could bring Rhupert, who is safe because of a number of small benefits. He could bring Gibbs in order to enhance his personal power and ability to contribute over the course of the game, he could bring Ragman for maximum feat and positive charge value. He could bring Acosta as a second line power solo to allow for some later game plays without having stryker be in a position to be hurt too much. There is plenty of options out there. I don't think reducing it to "X is best" will help. And what supports your idea that Acosta can compete with them? Don't the theme has a lots of Lances and some heavies already? Surgical knife seems not so important on the late game I think. Although it is fun to see Acosta is B2B with the enemy warcaster, or charge and end the game, but isn't we think about how to make it happen first?
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Post by Aegis on Jul 12, 2017 16:05:41 GMT
Yeah, I agree with Puppy here.
Acosta with buffs is great indeed, but a superior melee bullet in an army of melee bullets (Storm Knights) can't really compete with the utility of supporting solos like Ruphert or Ragman, or toolbox solos like Eilish, Gorman and Eyriss1.
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Post by streetpizza on Jul 12, 2017 18:34:30 GMT
One other solo we might see a lot in storm division now is Taryn. With the rise of the storm strider I wouldn't at all be surprised to see full on electrical shooting builds come into prominence and Taryn allows them to shoot whatever they want with shadow fire. She also allows stuff like storm towers and storm callers to see through the huge bases by shooting and shadow firing your own stuff on your turn. Nemo3 will be kind of this kind of play.
As for Acosta, making him an either/or proposition with the merc inclusion is a huge mistake in my opinion. Not many people were using him when he wasn't a cygnar model and now that he finally got the ability he needs to be in the list he's suddenly pit against a whole slew of better choices. This is just a baffling design choice. PP says they want to diversify list building then they kill one of the things that would actually create interesting options.
Cygnar Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Storm Division
(Nemo 3) Artificer General Nemo [+25] - Firefly [8] - Firefly [8] - Hurricane [39] - Squire [0(5)] Stormsmith Stormcaller (3) [0(5)] Stormsmith Stormcaller (3) [5] Taryn [4] Storm Strider [18] Storm Strider [18]
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jul 13, 2017 5:36:15 GMT
One other solo we might see a lot in storm division now is Taryn. With the rise of the storm strider I wouldn't at all be surprised to see full on electrical shooting builds come into prominence and Taryn allows them to shoot whatever they want with shadow fire. She also allows stuff like storm towers and storm callers to see through the huge bases by shooting and shadow firing your own stuff on your turn. Nemo3 will be kind of this kind of play. As for Acosta, making him an either/or proposition with the merc inclusion is a huge mistake in my opinion. Not many people were using him when he wasn't a cygnar model and now that he finally got the ability he needs to be in the list he's suddenly pit against a whole slew of better choices. This is just a baffling design choice. PP says they want to diversify list building then they kill one of the things that would actually create interesting options. Cygnar Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Storm Division (Nemo 3) Artificer General Nemo [+25] - Firefly [8] - Firefly [8] - Hurricane [39] - Squire [0(5)] Stormsmith Stormcaller (3) [0(5)] Stormsmith Stormcaller (3) [5] Taryn [4] Storm Strider [18] Storm Strider [18] Taryn costs 5 points, actually.
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Post by streetpizza on Jul 13, 2017 11:12:29 GMT
so she does ... been awhile.
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