Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Mar 20, 2017 3:55:44 GMT
I love the idea of Theme Forces in theory, I just don't like how they've been implemented in Mark3. In Mark2 I felt the major flaw with Theme Forces was that the initial batch of Theme Forces for each new caster was 95% garbage. They just seemed like something fluffy that was thrown in and very few were actually good. With Mark3 it appears that the game was written to be played in theme the majority of the time. The big problem here is that we only have a handful of themes. Realistically with the models currently available each faction should have 5-7 different theme forces, but instead we currently have 1-3. This makes things incredibly imbalanced towards models and factions that have good themes.
I actually like the idea of theme forces basically playing 10-20 points up on non themes. It feels like an inverse of the Android Netrunner NAPD most wanted list only instead of putting deck building penalties on players for running strong cards, you get the points penalty for playing out of theme. You can still play these strong out of theme interactions with the likes of Wrong Eye, Rhuphert, Reinholt, ect. outside of Mercs/Minions, but you get a points penalty for doing so. I feel like this will do wonders for increasing model diversity in the long run when every faction has a completed catalog of 5-7 Theme Forces to choose from that are balanced internally against each other, but in the short term it punishes the factions that have fewer good theme force options to choose from, and gives a major power boost to any faction that managed to get a theme force like Storm Division or Creator's Might that rewards a player for taking a list they were already going to take out of theme.
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Post by Aegis on Mar 20, 2017 4:32:24 GMT
I love the idea of Theme Forces in theory, I just don't like how they've been implemented in Mark3. In Mark2 I felt the major flaw with Theme Forces was that the initial batch of Theme Forces for each new caster was 95% garbage. They just seemed like something fluffy that was thrown in and very few were actually good. With Mark3 it appears that the game was written to be played in theme the majority of the time. The big problem here is that we only have a handful of themes. Realistically with the models currently available each faction should have 5-7 different theme forces, but instead we currently have 1-3. This makes things incredibly imbalanced towards models and factions that have good themes. I actually like the idea of theme forces basically playing 10-20 points up on non themes. It feels like an inverse of the Android Netrunner NAPD most wanted list only instead of putting deck building penalties on players for running strong cards, you get the points penalty for playing out of theme. You can still play these strong out of theme interactions with the likes of Wrong Eye, Rhuphert, Reinholt, ect. outside of Mercs/Minions, but you get a points penalty for doing so. I feel like this will do wonders for increasing model diversity in the long run when every faction has a completed catalog of 5-7 Theme Forces to choose from that are balanced internally against each other, but in the short term it punishes the factions that have fewer good theme force options to choose from, and gives a major power boost to any faction that managed to get a theme force like Storm Division or Creator's Might that rewards a player for taking a list they were already going to take out of theme. I think the problem with Theme Forces go more fare away than that, and I'll try to explain why. I'm an IK fluff nerd and I used to play almost 100% in faction even at the time of MK2 Mercnar, so I totally get what you say about being happy to see more themed armies. That said, I don't think this is a good way to do it. 10-20 points are far too much, making out of themes heavily penalyzed. Not only that, but also themes aren't always going to make fluff-coherent armies. Take Haley3 as an example. In the fluff, after her resurrection she is heavily into the Storm Division, so that should be her theme of choice, but actual interactions (Tactical Supremacy) makes her wanting Trenchers a lot more than Stormknights. That will mean two things: 1) As you already figured out, pieces that don't fit into a theme will be heavily penalyzed. 2) Even when appropriate theme forces will be out for every caster, it would not always mean that the theme fits the caster very well. I could make the same Example with Caine3 and Heavy Metal. Caine3 in the fluff seem the most unlikely warcaster to have access to large amounts of Cygnaran warjacks, let alone things like Thunderhead or an Hurricane, but you will probably see him almost always in that theme because it interacts well with his features. Finally, there is the issue of models not included in any theme and of Character Jacks and Beasts... Like an example, right now there isn't any theme that includes Trenchers, Long Gunners, Rangers or Precursor Knights. The Trencher theme force will likely include some, but what about the rest? Have I to renounce to field good units like Rangers just because fielding them will cost me 15 points? Why? And what about good Character Jacks or Beasts tied to bad warcaster? Did I just waste my money and painting time on Gallant, if I can't use it anywhere since it would cost me 30 points to field him outside Constance Blaize lists? The same thing could be said with every faction and caster. In fact, what about casters that don't get a theme force that works well with them? And even if everyone finds a good theme for him (unlikely), wouldn't it just make most lists of that particular caster practically identical thanks to the ties of the theme, reducing variety? Nah, I don't like the actual implementation of theme forces at all. In my opinion, the only free points that make sense are free UAs that encourage using some units, but the free points should range from 5 to 10, not from 10 to 20, and the other benefits should be more interesting and tied to specific models of the theme (like extra abilities tied to particular models/units). That way you can encourage the use of some models without outright removing some possibilities. I also think that if someone has bought some mercs or minion solos, he should be granted the chance to field them at reasonable price, not at cost of 15 extra points... Mercs were first an addition to the options of the various factions, and only after they also become a faction by themselves. Actually, pure Mercs armies are pretty rare in the fluff, since there are very few commissionars outside national armies that can pay enough to get big armies of mercenaries, and even the ones who do rarely need an entire army of them since their goals aren't on national warfare level, so 90% of the life of a merc is spent fighting with his small "band" (or unit) alongside the various factions, and pretty rarely (if ever) in pure mercs armies.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Mar 20, 2017 5:47:14 GMT
Finally, there is the issue of models not included in any theme and of Character Jacks and Beasts... Like an example, right now there isn't any theme that includes Trenchers, Long Gunners, Rangers or Precursor Knights. The Trencher theme force will likely include some, but what about the rest? Have I to renounce to field good units like Rangers just because fielding them will cost me 15 points? Why? And what about good Character Jacks or Beasts tied to bad warcaster? Did I just waste my money and painting time on Gallant, if I can't use it anywhere since it would cost me 30 points to field him outside Constance Blaize lists? The same thing could be said with every faction and caster. Well this goes back to when I said the current implementation of theme forces was bad, and it goes back to the poor release Mark3 received. I honestly think Mark3 should have been released with all of the Command Books and at least 3 Theme Forces per faction. Ideally once more Theme Forces get released every faction model will be included in one or more Themes. Good Characters being tied to bad Warcasters shouldn't prevent Theme Force inclusion IMO. Just take a look at The Devourer's Host. Even though Ghetorix is Kromac's (not saying Kromac is bad) character Beast any Warlock can take him in theme. I don't see why the same couldn't happen in the future for Gallant, Azrael, or Chiron.
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Post by sideshowlucifer on Mar 20, 2017 12:48:53 GMT
If they want Themes to play a bigger role and be sub-factions, they should release theme models which can only be played in specific themes. Then they truly would be sub-factions. Id addition to that, more abilities like ambushing a unit, removing AD, and various other bonuses that aren't points related. That would make each faction and sub-faction feel important and more unique while being able to be balanced easier. In addition, they could limit certain models to specific themes as well when they fit the design.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Mar 20, 2017 14:10:34 GMT
The current implementation of themes is rather terrible and most of it is tied to those damned free points. The idea is nice and I can see that from a business perspective introducing these themes and the focus on them was necessary.
I can already see it with Cygnar though: List building has become rather boring and needlessly restrictive. What if I want a unit of trenchers, but not an entire list of them? Same with Jacks, Stormknights, Sword Knights, Gun Mages. If I want to play a balanced and diverse army, does that mean I have to play 15p down? That doesn't seem right to me.
I assume it'll be the same with Skorne (if we ever get theme forces). I'd like to play a list with a few Praetoreans (or however you spell those guys), a unit of Reivers and maybe some Bloodrunners. Is that not fluffy enough? Will it have to be "all the Praetoreans", "all the Reivers" or "all the Paingivers"? I'd argue that a force made up of members of all the different warrior traditions (and other castes like Paingivers) is way more in line with the fluff than one-sided spam.
And it would all be fine without those free points. If the decision was 'I can break out of Heavy Metal and lose 2" Deploment and 3" Reposition' instead of 'I can break out of Heavy Metal, lose 2" Deployment and 3" Reposition AND play 17p down' I'd be totally fine with that.
That said, this is all rather futile. PP is not listening. Give it a year and it will be "play in theme or play a different game". I don't dislike theme forces enough to quit the game for, but it's still rather sad that it seems to become the only real alternative.
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Post by Permutation Servitor on Mar 20, 2017 15:19:56 GMT
That said, this is all rather futile. PP is not listening. Give it a year and it will be "play in theme or play a different game". I don't dislike theme forces enough to quit the game for, but it's still rather sad that it seems to become the only real alternative. An alternative is for you and your local gaming group to play without themes on occasion. One of the local big fish is planning to run a No Theme Force tourney. That won't help you at the national meta, but locally it's a solvable problem.
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Post by kineath on Mar 21, 2017 12:03:45 GMT
I love the idea of Theme Forces, however I really dislike the free points. I'd rather see more rule advantages. Free points feel like a fix for less played models.
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Post by schostoppa1 on Mar 21, 2017 21:13:34 GMT
Will Shick pretty much confirmed in an interview that themes are essentially sub factions. Atleast thats how I understood it.
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Post by redfive on Mar 22, 2017 19:05:12 GMT
Like formations in 40k, I like the idea of Theme Lists more than how they actually operate. I often feel like Theme Lists are abused for their marginal bonuses which can become significant advantages when lists are tailored to maximize the Theme's benefits.
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Post by nightdragon on Mar 23, 2017 0:14:30 GMT
Theme forces aren't an issue. Spam is not an issue. Model power levels are an issue. Themes are obviously the way that PP plans to move forward with WMH. They will make it easier to balance factions by breaking them up into smaller subfactions. I like that, and I wish that more themes were released quicker so that everyone could have them now. But, that is not to be. The more themes released that are balanced and competitive, the closer the game will get to equilibrium. Suggesting a change to FA: U is insane at this time, and very inconsiderate to everyone who as invested in many models. If a model is worth its points, but not more, then spamming is not an issue. Some models are purposefully undercosted, but held back by FA: 1 or FA: C. See, I am completely against the factions being broken into subfactions. I bought into Cygnar, and I like all parts of Cygnar (except Precursor Knights, screw those guys). From what I can see, there is little to no reason to play out of theme. The tactical flexibility is outweighed by the substantial points increase, and I agree with others who say that theme forces will make up the vast majority of competitive lists (which is something PP desires, right?). I can really only see a couple things that will happen with the proliferation of theme forces. 1) Theme Forces are the only intelligent list to take in the majority of circumstances. This basically turns every faction into Mk2 minions. You don't have Cygnar, you have Storm Knights or Gun Mages or 'jacks or Trenchers, and they can't mix. I won't be able to seriously play my Trenchers with my Storm Knights, because I will be playing at such a disadvantage to the rest of the field (down 10-20 points, and miscellaneous benefits). For something to be worth that cost, it would be ludicrously overpowered, so why not play that in theme instead? Also, how much do 'casters really change the composition of a theme force (legit question)? Aren't the themes mostly dictated by the strongest of the available model choices, accompanied by the 'caster that supports them best? That sounds incredibly cookie cutter to me. 2) There is a Theme Force for every occasion. There is a Trencher+Storm Knight force, a Gun Mage+Storm Knight force, etc. Any list I want to make (for the most part) can fit into a theme. Well why the hell are there themes then? Won't there still be theme forces that rise to the top, as now that every army is on a level playing field you just pick the best benefits/strongest model list? I don't see the benefit of making theme forces functionally mandatory.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Mar 23, 2017 1:47:26 GMT
Theme forces aren't an issue. Spam is not an issue. Model power levels are an issue. Themes are obviously the way that PP plans to move forward with WMH. They will make it easier to balance factions by breaking them up into smaller subfactions. I like that, and I wish that more themes were released quicker so that everyone could have them now. But, that is not to be. The more themes released that are balanced and competitive, the closer the game will get to equilibrium. Suggesting a change to FA: U is insane at this time, and very inconsiderate to everyone who as invested in many models. If a model is worth its points, but not more, then spamming is not an issue. Some models are purposefully undercosted, but held back by FA: 1 or FA: C. See, I am completely against the factions being broken into subfactions. I bought into Cygnar, and I like all parts of Cygnar (except Precursor Knights, screw those guys). From what I can see, there is little to no reason to play out of theme. The tactical flexibility is outweighed by the substantial points increase, and I agree with others who say that theme forces will make up the vast majority of competitive lists (which is something PP desires, right?). I can really only see a couple things that will happen with the proliferation of theme forces. 1) Theme Forces are the only intelligent list to take in the majority of circumstances. This basically turns every faction into Mk2 minions. You don't have Cygnar, you have Storm Knights or Gun Mages or 'jacks or Trenchers, and they can't mix. I won't be able to seriously play my Trenchers with my Storm Knights, because I will be playing at such a disadvantage to the rest of the field (down 10-20 points, and miscellaneous benefits). For something to be worth that cost, it would be ludicrously overpowered, so why not play that in theme instead? Also, how much do 'casters really change the composition of a theme force (legit question)? Aren't the themes mostly dictated by the strongest of the available model choices, accompanied by the 'caster that supports them best? That sounds incredibly cookie cutter to me. 2) There is a Theme Force for every occasion. There is a Trencher+Storm Knight force, a Gun Mage+Storm Knight force, etc. Any list I want to make (for the most part) can fit into a theme. Well why the hell are there themes then? Won't there still be theme forces that rise to the top, as now that every army is on a level playing field you just pick the best benefits/strongest model list? I don't see the benefit of making theme forces functionally mandatory. The benefits are fairly simple. I understand if you don't like them of course. I like certain parts of the way themes are being implemented, and I dislike some other features. Benefits: 1. Since themes are advantaged point-wise, if something is not broken in theme, it likely won't be out of theme. Mostly because the point/opportunity cost of going out of theme will negate the potentially increased power. Basically, because most models only need to be balanced within a theme going forward, it will be much easier to balance all of the models in the game as a whole. I think this is the biggest benefit because it means that WMH could become a really well balanced game. 2. It kind of requires lists to look more thematically appropriate. This one, I don't care too much about. But I see some valid reasoning in it. If the armies on display at game stores and tournaments all look thematic and tidy, then it might well be a nice boost to the looks of WMH. Again, not really the one I care about too much, but I can see it mattering to PP. I know there are plenty of negatives, though. I miss my mercs. Just trying to look on the brighter side, y'know. For now, there are actually a lot of pretty cool builds available because of Storm Division and Heavy Metal. And that's largely because of free points. We can bring a ton of jacks with the support that they desperately need at that point level. We can run all the storm blades and lances we want (don't turn into a 'nerf the lances' thread, pls) along with adequate support and lightning immunity.
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Post by streetpizza on Mar 23, 2017 3:47:12 GMT
The funniest part of the theme releases to me is that a bunch of people were saying that the game felt constricted at 75pts and that you couldn't fit in the support lists really seemed to want. As such there was a push to play at 100pts for tournaments. Enter theme forces and now everybody is actually playing very near that 100pt mark and lo and behold the support you need can actually fit now as its basically free.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Mar 23, 2017 11:28:43 GMT
The funniest part of the theme releases to me is that a bunch of people were saying that the game felt constricted at 75pts and that you couldn't fit in the support lists really seemed to want. As such there was a push to play at 100pts for tournaments. Enter theme forces and now everybody is actually playing very near that 100pt mark and lo and behold the support you need can actually fit now as its basically free. That's what themes would be accomplishing. But, since not everyone has their themes yet, it's more like some factions get to play at ~100 points, but others are stuck at 75.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Mar 23, 2017 11:48:43 GMT
And maybe some people want to play - say - Cygnar and not Heavy Metal or Storm Division. I feel like this kind of mixed / balanced playstyle is being punished and I don't think that's a good thing.
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Post by schostoppa1 on Mar 23, 2017 12:40:00 GMT
If theme forces are to be a staple and featured very often I wonder they dont just increase the ppint limit to 100 across the board and give abilites/senario effects for im theme armies. Or att the very list start adding a few exclusions to casters to some lists.
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