proxy
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Posts: 21
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Post by proxy on Mar 14, 2017 0:28:13 GMT
I feel the same way. It feels like some of them are complete hot trash that no one will play currently while others the detriment to the list is negligible because of either the models available or the free points. I guess that PP stayed true to their word and no longer discounts models which is positive in the sense that I cannot squeeze another heavy into my Reznik 2 Jackspam list. On the other hand the three free solo's completely fixed the focus issue the list had making it easier to pilot. The only detriment to the list is no Eye of Truth which I can live with when I am running 5-6 heavies without an issue. This hardly seems fair... This sucks for some factions where their tier list may not be an A or S level theme and are not at a detriment. Playing 9-15 points up can be a pretty big swing depending on what the support pieces are. On the topic of spam... I think it is poor balance when factions have the decision matrix decided on two or three power house models that are taken in proliferation because of their cost effectiveness contrasted to their power level for similar costed options. To me this is poor design and internal balance. When I was at the OTC I had the pleasure of talking to a few Khador players. There were the one running 9+ rockets and list with 4-6 marauders in theme. There were the ones who were running more old school MKii lists. I asked two of them why they were not playing the current hotness and one was because his addition Winterguard/Marauder order had not arrived in time and the other player because he did not have time to paint them and wanted to make sure he was fully painted. So here was have spam a clear example of a theme list that offers far more reward (sac pawn all the things) for little downside... I am in the same boat for motivation to play. If it were not my weekly reprieve from the labors of work and family commitment(not meant pejoratively) I would probably not be playing. I love my community which also helps but my meh factor is at an all time high. With all of the changes recently and the way balance seems to be going I am starting to look at other games.
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ware86
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 51
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Post by ware86 on Mar 15, 2017 12:47:53 GMT
I personally think spam lists help to bring balance. Ultimately I think they are/can be broken but if a model is good enough to spam it's probably doing something way under its point cost and needs to be fixed. With constant errata updates this allows for models to be fixed rather quickly and should help bring a more balanced game. However, some casters almost require spam to be useful. Take 2una for example, she brings a specific benefit to 3 models in all of circle 2 of which are aweful leaving you with one option resulting in "spam". Ultimately I don't think the Scaresfell Griffon was the problem but the caster (feat). By allowing FA:U una becomes viable. Theme forces I think are breaking the game and are way harder to fix. I think this is mainly due to PP's mindset that they want everybody playing in theme which "allows" broken themes to go unpunished because it's what they want to see. I like the idea of theme forces but free points does not balance easily. Also, it's not fun when your factions (circle) theme forces suck and your opponent (cygnar) has two amazing theme forces to work with. All that equates to you playing 15 points (one Jack/beast) down because you don't have equal tools... In addition, I hate the idea that models suck but "hey you can play them in theme to fix them". If a model doesn't work then they should be fixed on the model level not being forced into a theme to allow models to be useful. I don't want to tailor an entire list to a group of models just because I want to use one unit that will never get played otherwise... Fix the model/unit so I can use it with whatever I want and where it fits, don't force it to fit. with the average point saving we probably will be forced into themes at one point (if nothing else changes). Not seeing that not happening. Otherwise you will be playing all games 15-20 points down in the future. And if your uniqe jacks will stay, as the only motivation to not play in theme, then they will really get expensive in points.
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Post by novaspike on Mar 17, 2017 21:15:20 GMT
I don't dislike themes. I started playing in mk2 with the Skarre2 'merchants of death' theme because satyxis got me interested in the game, and it let me take a ton of them.
That being said, I'd like better if themes just shored up the weaknesses of a 'fluffy' list, or at least made them more playable in a take all comers environment.
Spam lists are pretty much inherent to the game due to force multiplication. While I don't disagree with maybe making a cap to power-up, that's not what's causing spam. Spam happens when you have a caster that can make something over the top, and it's best used en masse. Right now it's on warjacks, but look at most mk2 Skarre1 builds. Between adding a die to the attack roll and +5 strength to everything in 12", you want to spam infantry as much as possible to make the best use of that setup. But with the cap to the feat added in mk3, you see quality models making it into list selection so they can either be delivered, or can make the most out of limit buffs.
So instead of messing with power-up, maybe cap army-wide or battlegroup-wide buffs to FOCUS value, or half FOCUS value rounding up.
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Post by Havock on Mar 18, 2017 0:27:15 GMT
I loved theme lists like mk2 Bad Seeds.
One that are actually different from a vanilla list.
The new theme forces are all built less around flavour and foregoing some options for another advantage.
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Tucker
Junior Strategist
Posts: 103
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Post by Tucker on Mar 19, 2017 2:26:08 GMT
Theme forces are problematic. In MkIII they give you a huge advantage - about 10 points of free models and several points worth of free abilities. You sacrifice flexibility in army-building in return, but for the good theme forces you come out so far ahead that you can easily have 20% more effective points than an opponent without a theme force.
This is not necessarily a problem if the intent is for theme forces to be the default way to play the game and if every faction has an equal selection of theme forces. This is not the case at the moment, as no faction has enough theme forces to adequately cover the breadth of the faction, and some factions have many more effective theme forces than others. Privateer Press should release more theme forces, pronto, and not be afraid to errata them on the fly (which, thankfully, I don't think they are).
Now, while having theme forces be the default way to pick an army is not necessarily bad from a game-balance perspective (all things being equal), it does add another level of complexity to game, which I think is undesirable. I would prefer to be rid of most theme forces and simply have a la carte army selection be the norm, as the extra complexity doesn't add much fun to the game and it is easy enough to balance models on their own without having to tweak their rules in themes.
One place where I would be willing to have theme forces is to allow the construction of oddball armies that aren't otherwise allowed. For example, the MkII Hunting Wolves theme that allowed Zerkova1 to take Mercenary warjacks in her battlegroup, or a theme force representing a temporary alliance of two factions. This actually adds something fresh and interesting to the game and so would be worth playing for reasons other than mere in-game effectiveness.
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Post by Gaston on Mar 19, 2017 3:07:38 GMT
I would pitch the idea of theme units, similar to the units of renown from last years league. It would be a mix of a few existing solos, but have its own rules, i.e. the Crew of Croak was 10 Croak Raiders, 2 Croak Hunters and a Witch Doc. It is a new release that encourages purchase, is flavorful, and does not add to SKU bloat.
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Post by argent on Mar 19, 2017 16:41:42 GMT
I hate theme lists for much the same reasons Haight posted, they are either craptastic and ignored, or they are so good that they make playing out of a theme against them a big disadvantage. They are insanely hard to balance. I was hoping that if they continued the idea of theme forces it would be more giving unique abilities or something to models and none of the free points. I'm also not a fan of how restrictive some themes are while others are pretty open to things you would take anyways. I think the Cryx theme and Legion flying theme are good examples on how restrictive they should be. Sadly, PP already has said they want themes to be a large part of the game and think about 90% of players will playing in one theme or another. My guess is it will be 90% of people playing in a very small amount of themes since some are obviously way better than others. As for spam lists, yep hate them. I got tired of them in MKI with Seraph spam and really hate jack spam now in MKIII even more. It's not fun to play against and it isn't fun to play, unless your that guy who just enjoys crushing your opponent's desire to play. Sadly, I also see no change coming here since themes kinda reinforce spamming. This whole edition is turning into something I'm just not excited about and I find myself skipping more and more WM days at the shops to do something else. It's been great for my money since I'm not spending any on gaming, but between the state of MKIII, the forums loss, and the PG's being disbanded, I just don't want to support them until I can get a more clear picture of what the future looks like. I tend to agree with this. Factions should be balanced within themselves and then against each other; it should not take theme forces to provide balance (or advantage, for that matter). I also don't like how it works its way into "flavor of the week" spam mentality. I can imagine how cheesed the folks who bought 8 Mad Dogs are now, let alone the folks who are going 4 units in on Revenants who will likely be very upset when something in the ruleset is changed that nerfs them back to the stone age again. I have refused to buy more than two of any model/unit since WMH began (arc nodes being the exception) I will not start now.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Mar 19, 2017 19:38:05 GMT
People seem to be implying that theme forces aren't part of the faction. But they are. They are a method to build lists with which are unique to your faction.
Saying "it shouldn't take a theme force to buff x" sounds like "it shouldn't take warcaster spells to use x".
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Mar 19, 2017 20:06:42 GMT
Theme forces aren't an issue. Spam is not an issue. Model power levels are an issue.
Themes are obviously the way that PP plans to move forward with WMH. They will make it easier to balance factions by breaking them up into smaller subfactions. I like that, and I wish that more themes were released quicker so that everyone could have them now. But, that is not to be. The more themes released that are balanced and competitive, the closer the game will get to equilibrium.
Suggesting a change to FA: U is insane at this time, and very inconsiderate to everyone who as invested in many models. If a model is worth its points, but not more, then spamming is not an issue. Some models are purposefully undercosted, but held back by FA: 1 or FA: C.
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Post by earthcrosser599 on Mar 20, 2017 0:12:29 GMT
What exactly qualified as spam? I often took three or four Carniveans with pThagrosh in mk2, and no one complained about it even though the large bulk of my points were spent on the same model type.
There was a line in some insider, I don't remember which one or who it was written bu, but there was a line in it that roughly aaid, "Don't worry, theme forces won't go anywhere because they're a defining part of the game" and all I could think of was "Yes, they defined the worst parts of mk2." I hated mk2 theme forces. Body and Soul was stupid. Runes of War was stupid. Machinations of Shadow was stupid. Will of the Nine Voices was stupid. Evolutionary Elementalism was stupid. They had the feel of being written by people who've played the game once or twice but don't actually PLAY thw game.
If anyone remembers the theme forces from Warhammer, they had a similar feel, except those were explicitly said to be made for casual games as they weren't balanced.
It looks nowadays like theme forces are gearing up to be bandaids for stuff they couldn't be bothered to playtest before shoving the rules out, or "Buy more of these models that you shouldn't because you can't use them anywhere else."
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Mar 20, 2017 0:17:28 GMT
People seem to be implying that theme forces aren't part of the faction. But they are. They are a method to build lists with which are unique to your faction. Saying "it shouldn't take a theme force to buff x" sounds like "it shouldn't take warcaster spells to use x". I think more accurately people are implying that "they wish they weren't" part of the faction, or required to buff X. I would be more okay with Theme Forces if they had any sense of permanency edition to edition. Their ephemeralness which will drive my real purchases are my issue with them.
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Post by Aegis on Mar 20, 2017 1:02:20 GMT
I love theme forces as idea, but I don't like the current implementation of them.
Most of them have marginal bonuses, and their real selling point is only the huge amount of free models they give.
I agree that soon playing out of theme competitively will be very hard, since everyone is going to have 10 to 20 points over you, and it's pretty rare that the flexibility of being able to pick from everything is worth that much points.
Right now, the only lists that run out of theme are the ones that don't have a theme that works well with them, but the more theme forces will come out, the more every caster will find a theme that works well with him, and the more the point advantage of playing in theme will overwhelm playing out of theme.
In the end, theme forces will be just a flat increase in army sizes for everyone (like if everyone just began to play at 85-90 points instad of 75) and a limit to flexibility (mercs, as an example, will become extremely rare out of merc faction, almost invalidating those purchaeses for non-mercs players).
I would have preferred them to have bonuses that made them a cool option rather than almost a must like they are now.
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princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
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Post by princeraven on Mar 20, 2017 2:48:51 GMT
My least favourite thing about theme forces is how many of them you can accidentally build a list that fits into one of them and just get a bunch of free models and other benefits for no real cost.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 20, 2017 3:15:45 GMT
My least favourite thing about theme forces is how many of them you can accidentally build a list that fits into one of them and just get a bunch of free models and other benefits for no real cost. Pretty much my immediate criticism of Creator's Might with a caster like amon. Take his normal list and just make it better for free.
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Post by Swampmist on Mar 20, 2017 3:44:15 GMT
I'm holding out hope that SR2017 will be the fix for that, forcing the beast\jack only lists to consider playing out of theme with a unit to control with, or in theme without only jacks\beasts (Sword Knights in Heavy Metal, Hex Hunters in Oracles, ect.)
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