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Post by streetpizza on Jul 7, 2017 13:49:59 GMT
My Feora1 testing will continue for another 2 weeks but in the meantime I have to start thinking about a Feora2 list to follow in 1's fiery foot steps. Now I'll preface this with the fact that I'm well aware that everything F2 does is done better either by Amon or F1 or F3. She's pretty one dimensional but that's not the point here. The point is to try and suss out the best list we can. As I read F2's card and consider options I can't find any reason to bring infantry other than to alleviate the focus load from her low focus stat of 6. Flame bringers or cleansers present passable options however bringing either one pushes me towards Guardians which would mean dropping the Hierophant. This just doesn't feel optimal but I could see a list moving in that direction. Playing in the Interdiction just doesn't feel like it offers F2 anything at all and in return she doesn't do anything for exemplar. This one is right out. That leaves vanilla Protectorate or Creator's might. I'm pretty much on a theme force bender right now so I'm inclined to keep it to Creator's Might. I'd be very interested to know if you guys see a really compelling reason to break theme though. Given that I'm in CM the next task is figuring out my jack load. So far I've landed on this: Protectorate Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Creator's Might (Feora 2) Feora, Protector of the Flame [+28] - Hand of Judgment [18] - Reckoner [16] - Reckoner [16] - Redeemer [11] - Redeemer [11] - Vanquisher [17] - Hierophant [0(3)] The Covenant of Menoth [0(4)] Vassal Mechanik [1] Vassal of Menoth [0(3)] Vassal of Menoth [3] Wrack [1] Wrack [1] Choir of Menoth (min) [4] Choir of Menoth (min) [4] Two redeemers are my fire starter targets with the intent to be hot swapping all game long. If I run into a heavy armor list firestarter will be dropped to allocate the extra focus to the redeemers to turn them into heavy shooting platforms instead. The reckoner is there to enable some accuracy vs higher def jacks and he's just an all around bad ass. Vanquisher gives me another heavy that doubles as some anti infantry and the Hand is always just solid with Feora. Feora is tanky enough on her own with escort up that I don't think I need the devout or vigilant here. The basic game plan is to convince my opponent to advance into my melee threat range by leveraging supperior ranged firepower and a constant lingering burning sensation in the backfield. Feora can step up with her flame thrower and the Hand's flamer to clear any jams while the other two heavies push the advance. My concerns for the list: - Seriously lacks board presence making scenario an issue especially in 2017 with the lack of infantry here
- Low model count means that every jack has to contribute each turn. Focus load could be an issue.
- Relies on randomness of deviations to do work.
I could tweak this to get two crusaders in instead of using both redeemers or re-work it entirely for the inclusion of a colossal (i don't own the judicator yet though). Another tweak would be to lose a heavy jack and work in a dervish/devout/vigilant and Rhovan. This would give me at least one unit that's free to go score zones. The last tweak I'm considering is swapping one of the reckoners out for a guardian to allow for spell assassination feat turns. Feora's magic ability isn't that impressive but with enough fire out there there's not reason she couldn't pull this off with enough focus on her.
There is also a strong possibility for making a case that F2 should be our caster to run double colossal. Judicator + Indictor could have serious legs with her upkeeping fire starter on Judi all game and letting the indictor just do what it does with an extra +2 movement.
Protectorate Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Creator's Might
(Feora 2) Feora, Protector of the Flame [+28] - Crusader [10] - Dervish [7] - Judicator [36] - Revelator [37]
Three Wracks [0(3)] Vassal of Menoth [0(3)] Vassal of Menoth [0(3)] Choir of Menoth (min) [4] Visgoth Juviah Rhoven & Honor Guard [9]
1 pt shy of fitting in the Hand ... le sigh ...
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Post by paradox on Jul 7, 2017 13:58:10 GMT
My theory was pretty similar.
Theme: The Creator's Might Feora, Protector of the Flame - WJ: +28 - Hierophant - PC: 0 - Judicator - PC: 36 (Battlegroup Points Used: 28) - Hand of Judgment - PC: 18 - Reckoner - PC: 16 - Reckoner - PC: 16
The Covenant of Menoth - PC: 0 Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0 Wrack - PC: 1 Wrack - PC: 1 Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1 Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1
Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4 Visgoth Juviah Rhoven & Honor Guard - Rhoven, Gius & Cassian: 9
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Post by streetpizza on Jul 7, 2017 14:00:36 GMT
My theory was pretty similar. Theme: The Creator's Might Feora, Protector of the Flame - WJ: +28 - Hierophant - PC: 0 - Judicator - PC: 36 (Battlegroup Points Used: 28) - Hand of Judgment - PC: 18 - Reckoner - PC: 16 - Reckoner - PC: 16 The Covenant of Menoth - PC: 0 Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0 Wrack - PC: 1 Wrack - PC: 1 Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1 Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1 Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4 Visgoth Juviah Rhoven & Honor Guard - Rhoven, Gius & Cassian: 9 All theory so far or any testing? Thinking of going this route after F1 as well and do you think you'll need the Hierophant if you're not hot swapping fire starter?
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Post by paradox on Jul 7, 2017 14:08:10 GMT
Played a few games. The hardest part I had was troopswarms, ironically, which judi was supposed to help fix. Lack of PF on the jacks (minus judi of course) also hurt. I have a variant that swaps judi and 1 fixer for a revelator. I have not tried that configuration yet. Double colossals might also be enough to solve the issue, but I'd worry about swarms and stuff that is faster with PF than you.
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martini
Junior Strategist
Posts: 119
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Post by martini on Jul 7, 2017 15:49:54 GMT
My theory was pretty similar. Theme: The Creator's Might Feora, Protector of the Flame - WJ: +28 - Hierophant - PC: 0 - Judicator - PC: 36 (Battlegroup Points Used: 28) - Hand of Judgment - PC: 18 - Reckoner - PC: 16 - Reckoner - PC: 16 The Covenant of Menoth - PC: 0 Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0 Wrack - PC: 1 Wrack - PC: 1 Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1 Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1 Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4 Visgoth Juviah Rhoven & Honor Guard - Rhoven, Gius & Cassian: 9 How about instead of free book, take free Tristan and move a Reckoner to him. More focus for Feora and +2arm for Reckoner.
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Post by paradox on Jul 7, 2017 15:56:48 GMT
I'm hesitant to move models out of Feora2's BG, but it's a consideration. Feora2 is built heavily around BG buffs/effects.
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Fire Step
Junior Strategist
Everyday I'm Wrastlin'
Posts: 334
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Post by Fire Step on Jul 10, 2017 8:57:03 GMT
Heh. Feora2.
So, the list that I tried I'll copy below, to save people the pain of playing it;
War Room Army
Protectorate of Menoth - F2 - Judy
Theme: The Creator's Might 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Feora, Protector of the Flame - WJ: +28 - Hierophant - PC: 3 - Judicator - PC: 36 (Battlegroup Points Used: 28) - Hand of Judgment - PC: 18 - Templar - PC: 15 - Vigilant - PC: 9 - Castigator - PC: 12
The Covenant of Menoth - PC: 4 Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0 Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0 Wrack (The Creator's Might) - 3 Wracks: 0
Choir of Menoth - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6
THEME: The Creator's Might ---
GENERATED : 07/09/2017 19:55:07 BUILD ID : 2040.17-05-19
I ran this three times in a tournament and really struggled with it. I find stress testing lists/casters in local tournaments an effective way of gauging their effectiveness.
WARNING NEGATIVE THOUGHTS INBOUND
Righty ho then. The design spec of the list is centred around troop removal and creating continuous fire in an effort to fuel Feora's feat turn, as well as providing heavy warjack skew. Unfortunately the list failed in a few key aspects;
Constant focus drain: Feora WILL need to upkeep both escort and firestarter on her target 'jack if she wants to get any value out of her battlegroup at all. The vassals mitigate this somewhat, but they're also vulnerable low-def, low-arm solos who are easily sniped away. The three wracks obviously provide a focus each per turn, but they always need to be within 12" to be a benefit, and Feora2, to be effective, needs to be heading deep up field. Her feat generally does not draw in as much focus as you’d expect, on average I drew in anywhere between 3-6 focus, which was replacing the normal focus that had been handed out to the warjacks at the start of the turn.
Not much either ranged or melee output: Simple really, not a lot of models in the army, not a lot of output.
Fire is fickle: it seems I'm thinking about and writing a lot about fire at the moment. It either kills what it touches immediately or doesn't damage it enough to honestly matter. One of the little issues Feora has is that her fire output isn't that high. She has a RAT5 spray (i.e. the lowest end of effective shooting, meaning she needs to boost to reliably hit most models), and righteous flames also relies on enemies wandering to within 2" of Feora. I'm only going to briefly mention her spell Cleansing Fire that causes continuous fire on a critical hit because it annoys me too much.
Thinking about her overall: Feora has a cluster of interesting rules and a really strong sense of design - she's clearly very flavoursome and interesting. Believe it or not, I want to play her, but not as she is right now. She reminds me a lot of Butcher2 in this regard - a warcaster who very rarely, if ever, sees play, with lots of rules that form a bit of a weird package.
How I would change her; Her focus is lacking for what she wants to do, and she really struggles to keep her 12" bubble wrapped around where it needs to be. She has a tendency to push forward into the enemy, and that 12" control often isn't enough to keep her warjacks in tow as well as the enemy in front of her to keep them on fire. She is a clear case for me where an extra point of focus could make all the difference honestly. It’s either that or she gets the field marshall that she actually deserves - Warjacks in her battlegroup gain continuous fire on their weapons. If Durgen Madhammer can hand it out randomly I don’t see why Feora can’t.
Her feat is odd. I've said above how fickle fire is. The more I've thought about it, the more I'm convinced that Feora 1 and 2 should actually have their feats mixed together somehow. A pulse of fire happens, then Feora moves it around. Obviously it couldn't be within 12" to get the pulse as I think both together in full would be way too strong.
I honestly struggle to work out what her win condition is. I tried twice and failed twice at a spell assassination mixed with a flaming spray - my point about her focus and RAT rises once again. Focus 6 is on the lower end of average, and most warnouns have a defense stat of 13+, meaning that a convincing spell push needs a boosted hit on top of the cost of the spell. Her higher pow spell is also cost 3 and lower range, once again draining focus. The assassination that I did achieve was based around melee on Testament of Menoth, who was still very resilient, needing the fire damage roll with zero focus to kill him.
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Post by paradox on Jul 10, 2017 11:04:53 GMT
I've found success with Feora2 to hinge on getting the right number of fires and angling for assassination or a big feat turn. The changes to SR make it harder to push to a big turn win. So you need a big attrition or an assassination. You can afford to upkeep Escort and Firestarter as needed in the early to mid game. Feora is just positioning here. I look to add a few fires, maybe some in CTRL, to get a start for feat turn. On feat, Im positioning aggressively and getting more fires out there. Key pieces are guaranteed to burn, and Feora should be on a healthy camp or safe if attritioning, or assassinating with abou 13-14 focus (6 base + hiero + wrack + set fires over 2-3 turns). Note here that this requires 6 fires to get 14 effective focus. Very manageable. Then charge/fire step in and youre MAT7 PS14 Reach. Initial and about 12 focus to buy/boost.
IMO, she needs Ignite back. That enables her and her jacks. Otherwise, she does feel like a less good but more durable Amon.
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Post by streetpizza on Jul 10, 2017 12:47:16 GMT
Ignite would be a good start but she should also swap the crit fire spell for the 4" AOE spell that just does continuous fire. Crit anything is BS.
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Fire Step
Junior Strategist
Everyday I'm Wrastlin'
Posts: 334
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Post by Fire Step on Jul 10, 2017 13:51:41 GMT
I've found success with Feora2 to hinge on getting the right number of fires and angling for assassination or a big feat turn. The changes to SR make it harder to push to a big turn win. So you need a big attrition or an assassination. You can afford to upkeep Escort and Firestarter as needed in the early to mid game. Feora is just positioning here. I look to add a few fires, maybe some in CTRL, to get a start for feat turn. On feat, Im positioning aggressively and getting more fires out there. Key pieces are guaranteed to burn, and Feora should be on a healthy camp or safe if attritioning, or assassinating with abou 13-14 focus (6 base + hiero + wrack + set fires over 2-3 turns). Note here that this requires 6 fires to get 14 effective focus. Very manageable. Then charge/fire step in and youre MAT7 PS14 Reach. Initial and about 12 focus to buy/boost. IMO, she needs Ignite back. That enables her and her jacks. Otherwise, she does feel like a less good but more durable Amon. Amon brings the full package, speed, synergy, focus support, parry. Tristan2 brings guns with an armour and melee and healing swing but minus any speed boost. Feora 2 brings speed... And a warm feeling.
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Post by paradox on Jul 10, 2017 13:55:56 GMT
Ignite would be a good start but she should also swap the crit fire spell for the 4" AOE spell that just does continuous fire. Crit anything is BS. Cleansing Fire? Eh. I don't mind it. Personally, I'd really like drop Firestarter, add Ignite, and give her Field Marshall: continuous fire for warjacks in her BG. Cleansing Fire is a shitty nuke, sure, but its hardly novel to have a shitty nuke or two. The game is loaded with them. Its cornercase. You might get the odd game where you get HoJ in range and drop a couple boosted POW16s on feat (where you have enough focus to burn). Not ideal, but it can surprise. I think losing Ignite was the worst part. Firestarter is not ideal, and alot of folks hate it. I see Feora1 as an uncontrolled wild fire. She's just fire everywhere. Walls of Fire. Fire exploding from her jacks. Ignite. Double flame throwers. Feat Oprah fire for everyone. Feora2 is more targetted fire. She can stoke the flames and get them where needed, and harness that power. Feora3 is really less fire-oriented. But her kit is way fine, so leave it. The feat covers fire, by spreading that ability to her forces. Plus, HoJ is dogganmed amazing with all Feoras. So theres that.
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Post by paradox on Jul 10, 2017 13:57:23 GMT
I've found success with Feora2 to hinge on getting the right number of fires and angling for assassination or a big feat turn. The changes to SR make it harder to push to a big turn win. So you need a big attrition or an assassination. You can afford to upkeep Escort and Firestarter as needed in the early to mid game. Feora is just positioning here. I look to add a few fires, maybe some in CTRL, to get a start for feat turn. On feat, Im positioning aggressively and getting more fires out there. Key pieces are guaranteed to burn, and Feora should be on a healthy camp or safe if attritioning, or assassinating with abou 13-14 focus (6 base + hiero + wrack + set fires over 2-3 turns). Note here that this requires 6 fires to get 14 effective focus. Very manageable. Then charge/fire step in and youre MAT7 PS14 Reach. Initial and about 12 focus to buy/boost. IMO, she needs Ignite back. That enables her and her jacks. Otherwise, she does feel like a less good but more durable Amon. Amon brings the full package, speed, synergy, focus support, parry. Tristan2 brings guns with an armour and melee and healing swing but minus any speed boost. Feora 2 brings speed... And a warm feeling. She's 15/19 + camp. That's REALLY durable. And she has great and non-linear threat ranges herself. These are things Durant2 and Amon lack.
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Fire Step
Junior Strategist
Everyday I'm Wrastlin'
Posts: 334
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Post by Fire Step on Jul 10, 2017 14:05:09 GMT
Amon brings the full package, speed, synergy, focus support, parry. Tristan2 brings guns with an armour and melee and healing swing but minus any speed boost. Feora 2 brings speed... And a warm feeling. She's 15/19 + camp. That's REALLY durable. And she has great and non-linear threat ranges herself. These are things Durant2 and Amon lack. I don't disagree, she's dodged free strikes for me, and those that hit didn't get closer to killing her. For such a slim and small model she can take a punch.
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Post by paradox on Jul 10, 2017 14:24:11 GMT
If you want a list for Feora2 that can give you lots of fire, but doesnt need Firestarter, here's an untested swag.
Theme: The Creator's Might Feora, Protector of the Flame - WJ: +28 - Hierophant - PC: 3 - Hand of Judgment - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 18) - Guardian - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10) - Reckoner - PC: 16 - Vanquisher - PC: 17 - Vanquisher - PC: 17 - Dervish - PC: 7
Wrack (The Creator's Might) - 3 Wracks: 0 The Covenant of Menoth - PC: 0 Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0 Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1 Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1
Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4 Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4
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Post by paradox on Jul 10, 2017 14:27:25 GMT
What Id REALLY want to try her with, though, is this:
Theme: The Creator's Might Feora, Protector of the Flame - WJ: +28 - Hierophant - PC: 0 - Dervish - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7) - Dervish - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7) - Dervish - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7) - Dervish - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7) - Dervish - PC: 7 - Dervish - PC: 7 - Dervish - PC: 7 - Dervish - PC: 7 - Dervish - PC: 7 - Dervish - PC: 7 - Crusader - PC: 10 - Crusader - PC: 10
The Covenant of Menoth - PC: 0 Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0 Vassal of Menoth - PC: 3 Wrack - PC: 1 Wrack - PC: 1
Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4 Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4
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