Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jul 8, 2017 18:52:16 GMT
But...but we are the Protectorate...we're worse by definition, because PP hates us and gives us the worst rules! I like Scourge as a spell a lot, the fact that it basically threatens automatic knock-down 14" from an Arc Node is well worth 4 Focus for me.
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Post by Swampmist on Jul 8, 2017 19:09:57 GMT
Actually, Azreal and Zuriel just became available in Children of the Dragon, so Kallus2 has opened up a ton.
Also, Hogle and Kallus2 ARE better at fire than our casters; they just have less fire in their armies. Either of the 2 in PoM, with access to cleansers especially, would be a b+ caster at the worst, and I'd argue both would be vying for spots in our tourney line-up.
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Post by paradox on Jul 8, 2017 19:21:30 GMT
Actually, Azreal and Zuriel just became available in Children of the Dragon, so Kallus2 has opened up a ton. Also, Hogle and Kallus2 ARE better at fire than our casters; they just have less fire in their armies. Either of the 2 in PoM, with access to cleansers especially, would be a b+ caster at the worst, and I'd argue both would be vying for spots in our tourney line-up. 1 theme = a ton.
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Post by Swampmist on Jul 8, 2017 19:22:10 GMT
Yes actually. He's been the talk of the town, since he has a lot more list-build options now.
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Post by paradox on Jul 8, 2017 19:32:06 GMT
Yes actually. He's been the talk of the town, since he has a lot more list-build options now. Rose colored glasses much?
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Post by Swampmist on Jul 8, 2017 19:34:42 GMT
Yes actually. He's been the talk of the town, since he has a lot more list-build options now. Rose colored glasses much? You can say so, but I've played him out of theme and he just barely fails to have enough points to bring everything he wants. The new CotD fixes this quite handily, and I expect his stock to raise pretty well in the coming weeks.
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Post by paradox on Jul 8, 2017 19:42:25 GMT
Rose colored glasses much? You can say so, but I've played him out of theme and he just barely fails to have enough points to bring everything he wants. The new CotD fixes this quite handily, and I expect his stock to raise pretty well in the coming weeks. In what way is this him "doing fire better?"
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Post by Swampmist on Jul 8, 2017 19:47:35 GMT
I mean, his kit is over-all better than Malekus and Feora2, though that's not really because of the fire. He currently does a good job of using his feat as a threat extender, and can spread fire both through beasts (in this case azreal and zuriel) as well as with combining free incubi and his fire upkeep. I'm not sure that he specifically does fire better than malekus, but I do think that his damage is more consistent and he can physically spread fire better than malekus (outside of cleansers, who are the single reason imho we didn't get kallus2's feat.)
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Post by paradox on Jul 8, 2017 20:00:12 GMT
I mean, his kit is over-all better than Malekus and Feora2, though that's not really because of the fire. He currently does a good job of using his feat as a threat extender, and can spread fire both through beasts (in this case azreal and zuriel) as well as with combining free incubi and his fire upkeep. I'm not sure that he specifically does fire better than malekus, but I do think that his damage is more consistent and he can physically spread fire better than malekus (outside of cleansers, who are the single reason imho we didn't get kallus2's feat.) He cant cause fire outside flame burst, passive spells, costly nukes, or FM melee. Or two expensive character beasts, neither of which is linked to him. Or I guess a few ranged crits. He barely causes fire at all, and struggles to find a BG that can. He does it worse than any of our casters. IF he can manage to cause fire, he gives a pow12 and free charge, but melee based fire super Skornergizes his feat. Were he in Menoth, the salt seas would flow.
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Post by Swampmist on Jul 8, 2017 20:18:27 GMT
Firstly, his passive is incredibly at spreading fire, especially with incubi. Give it a try some time . Secondly, both character beasts are amazing with him, so being linked doesn't matter whatsoever now that they are available in a theme. Third, his feat also (read: is good because it gives) +3" of movement on charges, on top of the free charges and auto-procing fire damage. It, combined with overrun, gives him insane charge vectors with flying beasts, which both of the nephilim heavies are. Seriously paradox, have you played kallus2 yet? Because it very much sounds like you are just assuming things based on glancing at his card, rather than play time.
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Post by paradox on Jul 8, 2017 20:30:56 GMT
Firstly, his passive is incredibly at spreading fire, especially with incubi. Give it a try some time . Secondly, both character beasts are amazing with him, so being linked doesn't matter whatsoever now that they are available in a theme. Third, his feat also (read: is good because it gives) +3" of movement on charges, on top of the free charges and auto-procing fire damage. It, combined with overrun, gives him insane charge vectors with flying beasts, which both of the nephilim heavies are. Seriously paradox, have you played kallus2 yet? Because it very much sounds like you are just assuming things based on glancing at his card, rather than play time. His passive spell require enemy to end activation. This assumes the attacking model cannot still kill the placed Incubi. The character beasts are allowed out of theme, where many here complain about playing out of theme, or in one theme now, pigeonholing his options, to parrot complaints here. Ive covered +3", again mimicing the arguments here, in that his best effect of setting fire is melee, or sacrifing 1 of 2 character heavies on a close range shot meaning the extra 3" are typically worthless. I have played vs him.
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Post by paradox on Jul 8, 2017 21:17:46 GMT
On Kallus2, I do think he's good, but it doesn't have alot to do with fire.
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Post by dazzla on Jul 9, 2017 0:36:01 GMT
IMO fire is a distinct disadvantage. Any elemental typed damage is a disadvantage relative to equivalent non-typed effects.
I do have opponents who bring Kallus 2. Blazing path makes the whole legion army fire immune. This immunity affects most of our warjack ranged attacks, several of our infantry attacks, a number of our casters' feats, defensive tech (such as Ashen Veil).
I disagree that Kallus 2 is skornergy. Blazing path combines very well with the feat.
Menoth has a number of fire immune models, but normally not all. It is not true to say that a Menoth army is likely to be largely fire immune. From my count we have 6 fire immune jacks.
It may be that Menoth can win a melee fight (although high defence beasts are not that fragile).
But to me, the issue isn't whether or not Menoth can beat Kallus 2. The bigger point is that the whole game is different, involving much less decision making using fewer of the tools available (potentially for both sides). In short, to me, the game is a lot less interesting.
I would much rather immunity (of all types) give a defence or armour benefit, rather than a complete counter.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jul 9, 2017 1:20:11 GMT
Honestly, I like that immunity prevents all. Yes, it can cause a bad match-up, and those suck. But if you're playing a tournament, you get 2 lists, so take the non-fire list instead. If friendly, then just agree with each other to not play that match-up, and move on.
On the positive side, it can create both interesting puzzles (how to get around the immunity) and fun solutions (I need to hit model X and Y with a spray, and can't. So I move my fire-immune model to where, if it's sprayed, the spray will get both X and Y!)
edit: Quite simply, I don't want easy mode. I want puzzles, I want out-of-the-box solutions to still work. I want "sub-optimal" models in the game, because making them work is fun.
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Post by dazzla on Jul 9, 2017 1:41:52 GMT
Honestly, I like that immunity prevents all. Yes, it can cause a bad match-up, and those suck. But if you're playing a tournament, you get 2 lists, so take the non-fire list instead. If friendly, then just agree with each other to not play that match-up, and move on. On the positive side, it can create both interesting puzzles (how to get around the immunity) and fun solutions (I need to hit model X and Y with a spray, and can't. So I move my fire-immune model to where, if it's sprayed, the spray will get both X and Y!) edit: Quite simply, I don't want easy mode. I want puzzles, I want out-of-the-box solutions to still work. I want "sub-optimal" models in the game, because making them work is fun. I agree with a lot of the above, but feel that the interest in puzzles and actions would be equal if immunity gave a (for example) armour buff or if it needed a 1 on a d6 to hit. It would actually leave some (low) risk in using a fire immune model as a target. I actually feel an absolute immunity removes the puzzle element. For example, in the case of several Menoth jacks it removes options such as a fire based ranged attack. Cannot do anything except melee attack.
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