Fire Step
Junior Strategist
Everyday I'm Wrastlin'
Posts: 334
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Post by Fire Step on Jul 4, 2017 13:17:45 GMT
Ok, list first: War Room Army
Protectorate of Menoth - Harbinger test list
Theme: No Theme Selected 75 / 75 Army
The Harbinger of Menoth - WJ: +24 - Hierophant - PC: 3 - Vigilant - PC: 9 (Battlegroup Points Used: 9) - Templar - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 15) - Reckoner - PC: 16
Vessel of Judgment - PC: 18
Exemplar Errant Seneschal - PC: 4 The Covenant of Menoth - PC: 4 Wrack - PC: 1 Allegiant of the Order of the Fist - PC: 3 Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1 Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1
Exemplar Errants - Leader & 9 Grunts: 16 - Exemplar Errant Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 4 Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4
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GENERATED : 07/04/2017 14:02:13 BUILD ID : 2044.17-06-23
Aim of the list: attrition, scenario.
Method: continuous martyrdom from Harbinger, coupled with Heirophant healing, Bonds of Faith, Doors of Judgement from Vessel of Judgement.
Specifics: the player can pick and choose whether to martyrdom or Doors of Judgement, dependant on advantage in scenario. Self sacrifice on errants further pushes this list into denial.
Interested to not see too much like this posted yet. C&C?
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martini
Junior Strategist
Posts: 119
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Post by martini on Jul 4, 2017 13:47:17 GMT
I woud remove Errant UA, Errant Seneshal and a Vassal Mechanik in favour of Rhoven.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 4, 2017 14:30:58 GMT
I don't think the errants do well here. They're all right, but Martyrdom is a fiendishly powerful ability and we're packing much stronger targets for it. The errant boat here is 24 points: Knights exemplar + UA, Vilmon, and a paladin buddy create a battle driven/righteous vengeance problem the opponent has to deal with for that same value, where even bringing grievous wounds still results in a problem later. It also hands you an extra shield guard that cannot be disrupted (hey eiyriss), and can be martyred.
Other options include Cinerators + min TFG screen+ wrack, Vengers + monk + wrack, 2 KE's with no officers + monk + vassal, or monk + eye of truth + wrack and just martyr the solos. I just don't think the errants will carry the game for you in this fashion.
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Post by dicebedamned on Jul 6, 2017 12:45:54 GMT
I play something similar, but not in theme and I drop the whole errant boat and replace with Flame Bringers and Monks.
The extra amount of martrydom's the Voj lets you get off is fantastic, and it gives you a massive base to hide behind should you need to. I pref devout over vigilant because of the huge base to hide behind when needed.
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Fire Step
Junior Strategist
Everyday I'm Wrastlin'
Posts: 334
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Post by Fire Step on Jul 6, 2017 13:20:19 GMT
OK, so first experience with the list, and Harbinger in MK3...
Victory to the Harbinger!
I should probably write some more... well OK then.
Playing into Cygnar. Experienced Cygnar player, with a Nemo1 storm division list. So, two units of Stormblades, UA, a pair of stormclads, a pair of iron clads, a journeyman controlling a hunter, and the squire, from memory.
We played Steamroller 2017, with the new rules that we currently know of from the insider (solos score flags, first to five more than the opponent, killbox at 12" etc). The scenario was the Pit 2.
I won the roll off and opted to go first. I actually don't think it matters as much with this army if you go first or second - you're aiming to absorb whatever alpha comes your way anyway, so really it just functions as a positioning and placement advantage.
For me, everything ran. There was no specifics. Just running.
My opponent gained an advanced more with the theme, so he was in a good position despite going second. He began by doing a bunch of shooting with assault and popping the mini feats for extra armor. Everything else ran. I dug deep with Martyrdom to keep the max amount of errants I could alive. I lost two overall as I started to get a bit nervous when Harbinger got down to 7 health. I shouldn't have worried. I let one die, and the other I popped the Doors of Judgement to get a kill in with an errant. So in total I lost two in the first turn. There was a forest right in the centre that the two units of stormblades had to cluster around. Nemo popped feat to disrupt my jacks.
My turn 2 was a mixture. First thing to happen was the allegiant going in deep to try to kill off 2 storm chaps, he killed one and failed on the other. The errants went belting into the circular zone to whack the storm chaps with assaults and melee as best they could on each side of the forest. They did fairly well, leaving 2 or three remaining from each unit behind. This left the big cygnar heavies as a threat. I misplaced the errant ua officer which prevented my reckoner gettting a charge onto a stormclad which was aggravating. Harbinger only has a speed boost on charges - no pathfinder or a significant melee bonus (discounting guided hand of course). I got a decent heal out of the vessel of judgement, which pushed up on the right to get its toe in the zone. It started slinging into the righthand unit of stormblades. Under their mini-feat they don't die to admonishers, it turns out. The vessel on its own healed Harbinger for 4. I cleared the right rectangular zone. Harbinger floated nonchalantly, healing herself with focus and popping feat. I had held together the army so far and didn't have any damage to show for it. Pretty good so far.
Turn 2 for my opponent. He was getting silently frustrated with martyrdom, as I kept alive a single errant and the errant senny to bother his whole flank, and who got free strikes against the charging ironclad and stormclad, who charge my Vessel on the edge of the zone. The d3 damage began to go against me however, as I rolled a lot of fives and sixes on the first few, which meant I had to start letting errants die. I lost five that turn, which wasn't ideal. My templar took a little damage, as did the reckoner. What hurt a lot more was the vessel took the charge from a stormclad and ironclad, who promptly wrecked it. Thankfully the free hits they took coming in were very good.
Turn 3. I'd lost the vessel, so I was looking a bit thin on one side. I filled up the jacks as they were no longer disrupted, and looked to empty the centre zone and right hand rectangular zone. Overall, I needed to kill the ironclad near the bottom of the circular zone, the stormclad in the middle, and 3 infantry models. Using the templar, I rolled fairly well to wreck the stormclad in two hits, and then promptly killed the two infantry nearest to him. The senny killed the other infantry. The reckoner got a charge on the lower ironclad, destroyed him, and managed to wreck the cortex and right arm of the stormclad. The vigilant who had spent the last turn knocked down thanks to the remaining ironclad in the left zone, stood up, and knocked the hell out of the stormclad, rolling 12 on two dice, then 11 on two dice, then 11 again on two dice. Under battle, this equates to a total of 7, 6,6, damage, all of which went into the cortex rows of the ironclad, turning it braindead.
With all that said and done, my opponent conceded. He didn't have anything in the way of an assassination run, and his jacks (the two that had survived) were brainless without cortexes. The hunter/journeyman combo didn't really have anything to contribute. Overall, I know I got very lucky with the rolling to damage, however, the list still functioned as planned. I denied where needed, and out attritioned the enemy well. The feat was fairly non-descript from harbinger, honestly I'm amazed they even printed it on the card.
I think the list is OK. The errants work in it, as they can self-sacrifice around themselves where necessary, and are generally frustrating to deal with. Assault from the senny ups their value and threat range nicely.
I'm interested to trial the list in a slightly different form, more high def and speed, likely with paladins, exemplar knights+UA, daughters, and other solos like Nicia. The vessel is a good addition to the list, but it does chip away at itself fast. Being charged by two heavies, even on full health, will kill it. So, in review, happy with the list as a beginning.
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Post by dicebedamned on Jul 7, 2017 11:33:55 GMT
Congrats on the win!
I like to run Harby with as many solos as possible if I am also bringing the Voj. Harby, Darlton, 2 x paladn, 2 x monk is what I am playing with atm and it just tilts opponents so much when the solos survive everything due to martrydom.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 7, 2017 13:34:51 GMT
Congrats on the win! I like to run Harby with as many solos as possible if I am also bringing the Voj. Harby, Darlton, 2 x paladn, 2 x monk is what I am playing with atm and it just tilts opponents so much when the solos survive everything due to martrydom. Who? (I assume you accidentally combined dartan and vilmon?) When running paladins, though, I'm personally favorable to zealots as well. they're righteous vengeance targets that still get back up anyway, and harby can save the monolith better than anyone else.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jul 9, 2017 1:38:29 GMT
So I've been trying a similar list recently.
Harby Hierophant Reckoner Vigilant Vessel of Judgement Tristan1 Redeemer min Choir 2 Mechanics 1 Wrack 2 Knights Exemplar + UA 1 Allegiant
Theory being similar, but less of a gunline. Knights Exemplar love Harbinger (can Martyr and it still triggers Battle Driven), and are fantastic targets for Door of Destinies. The two games I've played so far, the biggest weakness has been the 12" gun on the Vessel. Both games it got one round of shooting and did good (first game it, the Reckoner, and the Redeemer brought Megalith to about 4 boxes, second game they kill Aikos' character jack, with the bounces wrecking movement and arc node on nearby chicken jack), but then it gets charged and dies (this takes a substantial effort, typically. Such as a fully loaded Deathjack with Scything Touch and Aikos' feat) Overall I like the list, I just need to find a way to protect the vessel better.
Considering dropping Tristan, Redeemer, and Allegiant for a second Vessel. I lose net lose 1 shot, so the shooting should still be enough to take out MOST heavies (Khador jack lives on 6 boxes on average, if everything hits), but I get to keep using the synergy from the Vessel longer, as it's highly unlikely both will die in one turn.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jul 9, 2017 21:26:56 GMT
Got 2 games in today with the modified Harby list (same as above, drop Tristan, Redeemer + Allegiant for a second Vessel).
Game 1 was vs Abby1 (Children of the Dragon) Azrael Proteus Zuriel Protector Soldier Sorceress & Hellion Shepard Warlord x2 Blackfrost Shard Nyss Archers + UA
Highlights: Threat from VoJ kept Archers out of the game almost the entire time. Building in center of board hindered shooting. Combined shooting from Reckoner and one VoJ killed Proteus top of 2, 3 charging KE with minifeat brought Azrael down to about 6 boxes same turn. Ultimately unable to kill enough heavies, (ended up killing Proteus, Zurial, Sorceress, and brought Azrael down to 2 after feat healed him), and unable to stop Abby from dominating friendly zone for scenario win.
Game 2 vs: Sturgis2 (no theme) Skarlock Nightwretch Desecrator Reaper Bane Lord Tartarus max Bane Warriors + UA max Bile Thralls Darragh Wrathe 2x Pistol Wraith Hellslinger Phantom
Highlights: This was a slaughter. Harbinger's feat + Purification (to knock of Occultation) + Rebuke shut down the Bile Thralls, making them easy pickings for the Vessel of Judgement (although presence of Biles kept a unit of KE far in the back until able to Rebuke them). On other side of board, second VoJ hit the Banes bad, sniping out the officer before he mini-feated(but the Banner toughed) and a couple KE attacked. Only thing that went wrong in this game was my opponent rolling at least 7 toughs for Banes, keeping that side of the board competative far longer than it should have. Only lost about 3 Knights before opponent called it, having killed everything but 3 Banes (2 were KD and on fire), BLT, the Pistol Wraiths, Hellsinger, Darragh, and Sturgis.
General conclusion is that the list is very capable of handling infantry-spam (especially melee infantry), and lists with a limited number of warjacks/warbeasts. List struggles and/or dies vs heavy warjack/warbeast spam, cavalry, or certain scenarios (both games were Entrenched, which sucked when I wanted to stay so far back).
A second Vessel is very helpful, because it splits the focus enough that it actually becomes less likely for either vessel to die in one round, both certainly won't die in the same round.
Will test further in the future, but so far Harby, VoJ, + KE is a potent combo, and I could certainly see it being my second list for a tournament.
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Post by Mydnight on Jul 9, 2017 22:18:42 GMT
Something tells me cinerators work well with Harbie. She gives them everything they want and the matyr/vengeance combo is sweet.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jul 9, 2017 23:18:54 GMT
Something tells me cinerators work well with Harbie. She gives them everything they want and the matyr/vengeance combo is sweet. I don't think so, or at least not better than KE. Without a defensive spell, Cinerators are not much more survivable the KE (4 boxes each and +2 ARM on first hit, which is not enough to save from a serious attack, vs +1 DEF, more bodies, and a smaller base). Offensively, KE+UA take the cake (P+S13 weaponmaster with cleave, overtake, AND mini-feat signs&portents? This kills basically anything but a colossal). Tipping point for me is the KE+UA are 2pts cheaper, and there's not a ton of wiggle room if you're already investing 18-36 pts in Vessel(s) of Judgement. But try it out. Maybe I'm wrong, and that would be awesome to see.
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Post by GoldenAegis on Jul 12, 2017 5:06:20 GMT
I really do like your double VoJ list. I'm sure the extra shots do help a lot with thinning infantry. I was thinking of trying out a list with one, same 2 KE+UA setup but with more solos; specifically 2 Monks, Vilmon, and 2 Paladins. Want to try to take as much advantage from the VoJ healing as possible.
Did you feel the second VoJ would be nessessary to take two objectives? Or does the 10 CMD cover two well enough. Also wish our heavier infantry were worth taking. They sadly lack in both defence and offense when compared to KE.
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Fire Step
Junior Strategist
Everyday I'm Wrastlin'
Posts: 334
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Post by Fire Step on Jul 12, 2017 8:57:27 GMT
List I'm trying tonight;
It's a blend of the ideas above. I was grappling with the idea of juggling points to get the revenger in for his arc node but I haven't managed it yet.
War Room Army
Protectorate of Menoth - Harbinger test list 2
Theme: No Theme Selected 75 / 75 Army
The Harbinger of Menoth - WJ: +24 - Hierophant - PC: 3 - Templar - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 15) - Vigilant - PC: 9 (Battlegroup Points Used: 9)
Vessel of Judgment - PC: 18
Allegiant of the Order of the Fist - PC: 3 High Paladin Dartan Vilmon - PC: 6 Paladin of the Order of the Wall - PC: 4 Paladin of the Order of the Wall - PC: 4 Nicia, Tear of Vengeance - PC: 5 Pyrrhus, Flameguard Hero - PC: 5 Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1 Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1 Wrack - PC: 1
Daughters of the Flame - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Knights Exemplar - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9 - Knights Exemplar Officer - PC: 5
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GENERATED : 07/12/2017 09:55:56 BUILD ID : 2044.17-06-23
Pros- lots of high Def high value solos/units. Cons- less warjacks than I am generally comfortable with.
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Post by GoldenAegis on Jul 12, 2017 12:08:42 GMT
Very similar to what I was thinking of trying! I was able to fit in the Revenger, but none of the Jacks are meat to crack anything heavy.
Harby -24 -Herophant -Devout -Vigilant -Revenger Vessel of Judgment Knight Exemplar Knight Exemplar Knight Exemplar UA Knight Exemplar UA Fist Monk Fist Monk Vilmon Paladin Paladin Mechanik Mechanik
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jul 12, 2017 16:36:03 GMT
@goldenaegis
Honestly, when playing the double VoJ, going for scenario was never an intention. It's a slow list meant for attrition, and scenario is the biggest weakness. That said, zones and flags tend to be within 10" of each other, so you can certainly have a vessel in each zone and still healing each other.
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