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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 5, 2017 1:23:28 GMT
Its gun being an aoe really isn't that useful. We have better AOEs in faction. Also our faction doesn't need AOEs we have better options for killing infantry. Its melee its identical in threat, mat and power to a tremoring ironclad except the ironclad is 5 points cheaper and thr knockdown is more reliably useful than stationary on warjacks. It is. It knocked down the enemy more than 1. Its AOE is 4 so you can knockdown more enemy, and make a hole to draw the line of sight. And it only concerns about the target's DEF, nothing else, means that you can shoot at an enemy with low DEF and knock an enemy warcaster down regardless his DEF. Also, its knockdown shot's threat range is 14+a, while Tremor is 9+a. You can't argue the diffrence in points between the melee warjack and the ranged warjack in a game tha ranged weapon with proper range always need for a premium. I remember that someone compares Trencher Infantry and Steelhead Halberdiers and why Trencher Infantry is not cheap as the halberdiers ignore the fact that they have a military rifle. I admit that it was on MKII, where Trenchers are had a hard time, but that was just ridiculous. And, is there any diffrence with this? Every point that you made to make the aoe knockdown good works equally for all 4 slam spells, earthquake and often the hurricane as well as the Hammersmith sometimes. In fact it's area of effect is often smaller than all of them.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 5, 2017 1:33:50 GMT
It is. It knocked down the enemy more than 1. Its AOE is 4 so you can knockdown more enemy, and make a hole to draw the line of sight. And it only concerns about the target's DEF, nothing else, means that you can shoot at an enemy with low DEF and knock an enemy warcaster down regardless his DEF. Also, its knockdown shot's threat range is 14+a, while Tremor is 9+a. You can't argue the diffrence in points between the melee warjack and the ranged warjack in a game tha ranged weapon with proper range always need for a premium. I remember that someone compares Trencher Infantry and Steelhead Halberdiers and why Trencher Infantry is not cheap as the halberdiers ignore the fact that they have a military rifle. I admit that it was on MKII, where Trenchers are had a hard time, but that was just ridiculous. And, is there any diffrence with this? Every point that you made to make the aoe knockdown good works equally for all 4 slam spells, earthquake and often the hurricane as well as the Hammersmith sometimes. In fact it's area of effect is often smaller than all of them. Those slam spells cost an awful lot of focus. With the Avenger, it's just the power up to boost to hit. So focus efficiency is on the side of the Avenger. The Avenger has merit. It isn't an all-star, but it can serve as a knock down AOE slinger, and then move in with the same threat, and nearly the same damage output as ab Ironclad. If you're going to take a Hurricane, sure the Avenger becomes a bit redundant. But he works fine as a dual role heavy.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jul 5, 2017 1:42:00 GMT
It is. It knocked down the enemy more than 1. Its AOE is 4 so you can knockdown more enemy, and make a hole to draw the line of sight. And it only concerns about the target's DEF, nothing else, means that you can shoot at an enemy with low DEF and knock an enemy warcaster down regardless his DEF. Also, its knockdown shot's threat range is 14+a, while Tremor is 9+a. You can't argue the diffrence in points between the melee warjack and the ranged warjack in a game tha ranged weapon with proper range always need for a premium. I remember that someone compares Trencher Infantry and Steelhead Halberdiers and why Trencher Infantry is not cheap as the halberdiers ignore the fact that they have a military rifle. I admit that it was on MKII, where Trenchers are had a hard time, but that was just ridiculous. And, is there any diffrence with this? Every point that you made to make the aoe knockdown good works equally for all 4 slam spells, earthquake and often the hurricane as well as the Hammersmith sometimes. In fact it's area of effect is often smaller than all of them. Of course area is better than slam - although I concur that it depends on the situation - for slam only knockdown the enemy hit and contact with it, but area effect affects everyone within the area. If the slammed model have the larger size it can move through the others and knocked down more enemy, but are you sure that it would make enough distance to work? It also needs to be positioning as well, but it seems that only Nemo can think about this because he is the only warcaster that consider bring a Lancer. Although I do use Thunder Strike sometimes and it was useful on a pinch. Also I remember that our warcaster's 'slam spells' are COST 4, isn't? It need to be useful, for it sucks up more than a half of their FOCUS.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 5, 2017 2:14:51 GMT
Every point that you made to make the aoe knockdown good works equally for all 4 slam spells, earthquake and often the hurricane as well as the Hammersmith sometimes. In fact it's area of effect is often smaller than all of them. Those slam spells cost an awful lot of focus. With the Avenger, it's just the power up to boost to hit. So focus efficiency is on the side of the Avenger. The Avenger has merit. It isn't an all-star, but it can serve as a knock down AOE slinger, and then move in with the same threat, and nearly the same damage output as ab Ironclad. If you're going to take a Hurricane, sure the Avenger becomes a bit redundant. But he works fine as a dual role heavy. That Avenger costs an awful lot of points. Points efficiency is not on the side of the Avenger. It has Merit. So what? Gun Mages have the "merit" of magical weapons and yet its *really* easy to not bother taking them because their merit isn't worth their cost. Same with the Avenger. He's not a good dual role heavy because his melee is meh and his ranged is meh. All rounders very rarely make their points back without being exceptional at something. Given the breadth of Knock down that we have access to, I just don't think I would bother taking an Avenger when I could take the alternatives (or just hit the things I'm aiming at. Since when does Cygnar *need* to make things Def 5? We are pretty easily able to make our army Mat/Rat ludicrous). I see very little reason to take an Avenger when I could take a Storm Strider, for instance. Or a Stormclad. Or a Centurion. All of which have more clearly defined roles and are more effective than the Avenger who is generally going to be losing out on some part of their value whenever they engage.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jul 5, 2017 2:51:15 GMT
Those slam spells cost an awful lot of focus. With the Avenger, it's just the power up to boost to hit. So focus efficiency is on the side of the Avenger. The Avenger has merit. It isn't an all-star, but it can serve as a knock down AOE slinger, and then move in with the same threat, and nearly the same damage output as ab Ironclad. If you're going to take a Hurricane, sure the Avenger becomes a bit redundant. But he works fine as a dual role heavy. That Avenger costs an awful lot of points. Points efficiency is not on the side of the Avenger. It has Merit. So what? Gun Mages have the "merit" of magical weapons and yet its *really* easy to not bother taking them because their merit isn't worth their cost. Same with the Avenger. He's not a good dual role heavy because his melee is meh and his ranged is meh. All rounders very rarely make their points back without being exceptional at something. Given the breadth of Knock down that we have access to, I just don't think I would bother taking an Avenger when I could take the alternatives (or just hit the things I'm aiming at. Since when does Cygnar *need* to make things Def 5? We are pretty easily able to make our army Mat/Rat ludicrous). I see very little reason to take an Avenger when I could take a Storm Strider, for instance. Or a Stormclad. Or a Centurion. All of which have more clearly defined roles and are more effective than the Avenger who is generally going to be losing out on some part of their value whenever they engage. I don't think that it is true. You compare a ranged warjack with a melee warjack, and an utility to nothing. It is never be a fair comparison at all.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 5, 2017 3:10:57 GMT
That Avenger costs an awful lot of points. Points efficiency is not on the side of the Avenger. It has Merit. So what? Gun Mages have the "merit" of magical weapons and yet its *really* easy to not bother taking them because their merit isn't worth their cost. Same with the Avenger. He's not a good dual role heavy because his melee is meh and his ranged is meh. All rounders very rarely make their points back without being exceptional at something. Given the breadth of Knock down that we have access to, I just don't think I would bother taking an Avenger when I could take the alternatives (or just hit the things I'm aiming at. Since when does Cygnar *need* to make things Def 5? We are pretty easily able to make our army Mat/Rat ludicrous). I see very little reason to take an Avenger when I could take a Storm Strider, for instance. Or a Stormclad. Or a Centurion. All of which have more clearly defined roles and are more effective than the Avenger who is generally going to be losing out on some part of their value whenever they engage. I don't think that it is true. You compare a ranged warjack with a melee warjack, and an utility to nothing. It is never be a fair comparison at all. You can call the comparison "unfair" but the thing is that we have to compare models all the time when we decide whether we want to fit them in a list and inevitably I find that the Avenger simply isn't competition for something more reliable at its job. Knocking something down is cute, killing it with guns is good. Storm Striders kill things with guns while the Avenger has to get close, be babysat by a mechanik just in case and get its shot or 2 in before it dies to something cheaper than it.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jul 5, 2017 3:55:19 GMT
I don't think that it is true. You compare a ranged warjack with a melee warjack, and an utility to nothing. It is never be a fair comparison at all. You can call the comparison "unfair" but the thing is that we have to compare models all the time when we decide whether we want to fit them in a list and inevitably I find that the Avenger simply isn't competition for something more reliable at its job. Knocking something down is cute, killing it with guns is good. Storm Striders kill things with guns while the Avenger has to get close, be babysat by a mechanik just in case and get its shot or 2 in before it dies to something cheaper than it. Even a Storm Strider cannot one round a heavy without an aid, and I doubt that it is able to do without the other damage source even with a ton of buffs. Also, why it is fair if you consider the fact that ranged attacks always strike first, and able to have have much broader targets to pick? And consider that it is natural that heavy warjack with proper ranged weapon(I repeat 'proper' because RNG 8 like as Stormclad's gun isn't seems so worthy enough to have a premium) has the weaker melee weapon, as always. A model that able to fight in ranged and melee is must be weaker than ranged or melee focused model if you only consider either side. And you compare the ranged output of it with the pure damage dealer, and compare its melee output with the much cheaper dedicated melee beatstick. Hey, isn't amazing that an utility ranged heavy has a same P+S with a cheap melee beatstick? I do rather think that it even threatens the place of the cheap heavy instead.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 5, 2017 4:02:23 GMT
You can call the comparison "unfair" but the thing is that we have to compare models all the time when we decide whether we want to fit them in a list and inevitably I find that the Avenger simply isn't competition for something more reliable at its job. Knocking something down is cute, killing it with guns is good. Storm Striders kill things with guns while the Avenger has to get close, be babysat by a mechanik just in case and get its shot or 2 in before it dies to something cheaper than it. Even a Storm Strider cannot one round a heavy without an aid, and I doubt that it is able to do without the other damage source even with a ton of buffs. Also, why it is fair if you consider the fact that ranged attacks always strike first, and able to have have much broader targets to pick? And consider that it is natural that heavy warjack with proper ranged weapon(I repeat 'proper' because RNG 8 like as Stormclad's gun isn't seems so worthy enough to have a premium) has the weaker melee weapon, as always. A model that able to fight in ranged and melee is must be weaker than ranged or melee focused model if you only consider either side. And you compare the ranged output of it with the pure damage dealer, and compare its melee output with the much cheaper dedicated melee beatstick. Hey, isn't amazing that an utility ranged heavy has a same P+S with a cheap melee beatstick? I do rather think that it even threatens the place of the cheap heavy instead. Actually a Model that can fight in ranged and melee is much harder to balance because if you are using it as a gun jack it is a worse gun jack than alternatives. If you use it as a melee jack it is worse than its alternative.
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Ryilan
Guild Master
Fighting heretics with vindaloo curry. Taste my spicy wrath!
Posts: 74
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Post by Ryilan on Jul 5, 2017 9:29:57 GMT
There will be no more personal attacks or this thread will be locked. Keep it civil.
Ryilan
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jul 9, 2017 16:54:28 GMT
Well, we don't have much opinion(only four even include me), but there are some models that most people are agreed on. Warcasters: - Haley1: Actually, no one deny that she is quite playable for her own. The real problem is she have no merit over the others. - Blaize: As discussed in the other thread, it seems that she is a melee supporter, but she doesn't support our melee while does nothing noticeable. She is even worse than MKII. Warjacks: - Ace: Other than Caine's battlegroup it is simply useless, and even in there it is too expensive. Only for the solo hunter role, I think that there are a plenty of choice better than it. - Reliant: Unlike MKII Defender works much better and remove the place of Reliant. Units/Attachments: - Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Officer: Well, he doesn't have much reason to be field for now. He is still a good 'Jack Marshal but he is too expensive just for that, and he does little to his units. - Long Gunner Infantry: They are hard to earn their points. They are not making Dual Shot without much help, but it requires too much resorce that better spend to elsewhere. Also new Trencher Long Gunner simply overshadows them as well. - Precursor Knights: Only a meat shield that does nothing else is not suited for such price. - Stormguard: Personally, I think that they are removed from the game since day 1 of MKII. I don't think that there is a meaning for a fragile unit that is supposed to be a vanguard. Even Long Gunner Infantry and pre-CID Triumph can do their duty, although they are too expensive for their performance and they are not so good, but Stormguards are not able to do their main job, and does nothing else as well. It is not the matter of the price. Silver Line is usable thanks to their charge denial ability, but still it doesn't protect them against the bullet either. - Sword Knight Officer&Standard: Well, I think that Reposition[3"] and the other benefits are not so bad for 4 points, but I remember that many people are struggle to include him, maybe because of his cost. - Black 13th Strike Team: As I said all the times, such a small unit's meaning is their utility, as well as the capability to take out some enemy. Without that, they are simply useless. If you need for more damage, you better use the warjacks and units. Solo: None. Even before the CID most of our solos are good. The only 'bad' model was Trench Buster, but if CID version is applied he is good for his points as well. I still don't think that there is a place for Stormblade Captain, though. Also two people said that Sons of the Tempest needs a help, as we think that the theme is plainly bad.
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Post by Aegis on Jul 10, 2017 0:14:21 GMT
The Avenger merit is to provide ranged knockdown while being caster and theme agnostic.
Other sources of KD are attached to particular casters, while Avenger can be in every theme and with every caster. The only other agnostic source is Hurricane, but being a colossal it twists lists even more, and actually not being AOE makes it less reliable.
He is also one of the very rare sources of wide AoEs in Cygnar, and that could come handy in some lists or in combo with some spells/abilities (Fire for Effect, Artillerist, etc...).
Probably it isn't a jack for all lists, but he has his niche of utility, and as long it exists I'm fine with it.
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gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313
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Post by gmonkey on Jul 10, 2017 13:15:35 GMT
First off, I should lead with the fact that I know Cygnar's doing well in the overall meta right now and doesn't need help. Every faction's got some models that the faction's players consider "unplayable". But being a Cygnar-only guy for 3 years now, I've got some input. Well, we don't have much opinion(only four even include me), but there are some models that most people are agreed on. ... I do agree with most of what you list, but have a few comments. I actually like Ace, although yes - only with Caine. Having a true sight jack who can hand out a turn of stealth is nice. Range 14 with AD is nice, especially since hunters are losing AD. And the shot types are always useful. Ace is great for picking out problem solos like Eiryss, or for using stealth to position Caine2 for an assassination, and shadow fire helps that assassination a lot. I know that The Black 13th and Arcane Tempest in general is regarded poorly at the moment. Personally, I really miss Ryan's AoE and Lynch's Fire Beacon. They were just cool. But a magical brutal POW10, POW11, and two POW12s isn't bad. I have a feeling that the Black 13th will make a comeback in popularity at some point. The Reliant has a long history (alongside Triumph) of being The Worst Jack. But I've been considering getting one. Cheapest heavy with a gun. And that AoE that stays there is nice. Park a firefly nearby and it's threatening POW12s to anything that touches it. I really like the Stormblade Captain, and I use him all the time. Sure, five points is a bit pricy, but have you ever had him marshal a Stormclad? That combo is nuts.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jul 10, 2017 16:48:19 GMT
First off, I should lead with the fact that I know Cygnar's doing well in the overall meta right now and doesn't need help. Every faction's got some models that the faction's players consider "unplayable". But being a Cygnar-only guy for 3 years now, I've got some input. Well, we don't have much opinion(only four even include me), but there are some models that most people are agreed on. ... I do agree with most of what you list, but have a few comments. I actually like Ace, although yes - only with Caine. Having a true sight jack who can hand out a turn of stealth is nice. Range 14 with AD is nice, especially since hunters are losing AD. And the shot types are always useful. Ace is great for picking out problem solos like Eiryss, or for using stealth to position Caine2 for an assassination, and shadow fire helps that assassination a lot. I know that The Black 13th and Arcane Tempest in general is regarded poorly at the moment. Personally, I really miss Ryan's AoE and Lynch's Fire Beacon. They were just cool. But a magical brutal POW10, POW11, and two POW12s isn't bad. I have a feeling that the Black 13th will make a comeback in popularity at some point. The Reliant has a long history (alongside Triumph) of being The Worst Jack. But I've been considering getting one. Cheapest heavy with a gun. And that AoE that stays there is nice. Park a firefly nearby and it's threatening POW12s to anything that touches it. I really like the Stormblade Captain, and I use him all the time. Sure, five points is a bit pricy, but have you ever had him marshal a Stormclad? That combo is nuts. Yes, it is true that Cygnar faction did well against the other factions. But regarding the bad model is not connected to that. Cryx or 2016's Skorne are needed to fix the bad model in order to run the faction, but as you know, apart the units most stuffs Cygnar have are good, and the other factions are also struggle to use the units as well. If all units we fielded are Storm Lances and Trencher Infantry, then the usefulness of Stormguard Infantry or Long Gunner Infantry are simply doesn't matter to the power level of the faction because we didn't field them at all. But it does matter to the internal problem of the faction. Just for pure damage output, Black 13th is one of the most point efficient option we have. But the problem is why we need to take them just for pure damage output. Also all three of them are need to be within 10" of the target enemy to be work well. I think that Reliant have a sure place in MKII, where Defender's melee P+S was 16 and it have 1 fewer points than Defender. So Reliant can crack armor better with its P+S 17 weapon. But for now Defender has the same P+S, and against warjacks it cause more damage(it already does in MKII, though). Advance denial itself is not so bad but it doesn't synergy with Storm Knights either. If its gun has AOE 5 and it leaves a cloud effect then I consider it seriously, because it can shields the Storm Knights. If it have ROF 2 then it may compete with the Defender, able to deny the larger area(and mitigate its unpredictable nature if you shoot against targets out of range) and able to crack armor better(but still have the shorter range than a Defender). But, it doesn't have anything viable over the other similar options. The problem of Stormblade Captain is, they don't actually supports the others but more expensive than the solo supporters. I think that the only reason to pick him is either fielding two full units of Storm Lances in Storm Division and you can pick him as the free point, or the captain is the only Storm Knight model in the list and you need to fuel a Stormclad. Other than these situations, I don't see the reason to field him. If you have any other Storm Knight unit, then they can fuel the Stormclad. If you want to marshal it, then you better take a superior model to it - Archduke Alain Runewood, who is cheaper, and able to buff the units unlike him. If you have any Storm Knight unit, then Runewood would be more helpful because of this. He is not a Storm Knight model, but who cares, when you have a plenty of Storm Knight models. Also I don't think that marshal a Stormclad seems a good idea, although we can do this. Marshaled jack needs two focus points to be work well as a fully focused warjack controlled by a warcaster. So you are also need Captain Arlan Strangewayes to cast Empower as well. Maybe, it would be a fair price for Reposition[5"], but usually it is better to put the Stormclads to the warcaster or models with Battlegroup Controller. If you have a Storm Knight unit, then Jakes1 can runs a Stormclad and able to cast Energizer, as well as able to put Sidekick on it and allow your Journeyman Warcaster to cast Arcane Shield on the diffrent warjack. edit: I didn't fully remember how much focus point is needed for a marshaled warjack in order to be competitive with the warjacks controlled by a warcaster. I did sort of this on PP forum some months or a year ago, but I can't fully remember this for now. Maybe it only requires one point of focus, and it doesn't need Empower to be work well and Runewood can work it efficiently. Because Crush can increase the damage output it can runned by the lower focus, but it seems that it needs at least one(and that's why Stormclad is good).
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