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Post by Aegis on Jul 4, 2017 11:56:57 GMT
I'm with Cygnar Guy on this.
Except for Reliant (that I still find totally not interesting since his gun is bad and his melee is inferior to an ironclad while costing more, and since he can't do both in the same turn, you will get either a badly overpriced Firefly or a quite overpriced Ironclad in every single turn), all other models seem pretty fine.
They could not be the first models I look for in every list (even if Thunderhead comes close), but they have their uses in some lists and that is what a model should be.
Avenger in particular seem another pretty good jack that I'm glad to have at my disposal, expecially now that themes rule Thor+Avalancher out of the competition.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jul 4, 2017 12:04:58 GMT
Avenger in particular seem another pretty good jack that I'm glad to have at my disposal, expecially now that themes rule Thor+ Avalancher out of the competition. Fixed for you And I do think that Avenger is good. Even in MKII it was a good warjack, and now it have MAT 7 and RAT 5 so it is even better. It is not so fragile even without Arcane Shield(I recommend to put it, though, because ARM 19 is still able to be cracked not so had), able to knockdown the enemy in distance, and have a P+S 18 melee weapon. It is a good a support heavy warjack that is able to make a counter punching the enemy too close as well. Only for the damage output indeed it is not a good warjack, but its advantage is not that.
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Post by Aegis on Jul 4, 2017 12:06:43 GMT
Avenger in particular seem another pretty good jack that I'm glad to have at my disposal, expecially now that themes rule Thor+ Avalancher out of the competition. Fixed for you And I do think that Avenger is good. It is not that fragile even without Arcane Shield(I recommend to put it, though), able to knockdown the enemy in distance, and have a P+S 18 melee weapon. It is a good a support heavy warjack that is able to make a counter punching the enemy too close as well. Only for the damage output indeed it is not a good warjack, but its advantage is not that. Yep, lapsus sorry. I meant Thor+Avalancher.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 4, 2017 12:24:50 GMT
I recently used an Avenger in a Haley2 list. Was not disappointed. That quake shot is great when you can get TA on it.
The Cyclone is probably appropriately priced, but I really don't like random numbers of shots.
I have the same problem with the sentinel.
The Reliant is... ok. Some kind of Storm Knight synergy would be good.
Of our models that I want to go through CID: -Nemo1 (Everything is good except the feat. That thing has been dead weight for too long) -Haley1 (Temporal Barrier needs to change more. It's a dead spell. I still like it as an upkeep that gives -2 spd and def, no charging to target model/unit) -Blaize (Change. Everything.) -Caine2 (he needs a minor buff. The last nerf went too far. )
Units: -Black 13 -Long Gunners -Storm Guard/Silverline -Precursors -Stormsmith Grenadiers -Trencher Cannon -ATGMP CA (he needs a reason to be taken. Swift hunter is terrible for this unit. ) -Sword Knight CA (Repo 3 and CMA do next to nothing for them)
Jacks: -Ace -Reliant
Themes: -SotT (needs to have restrictions changed from jacks with ranged weapons only, to non-lightning immune jacks only. And basically needs a couple more solos released.)
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Post by steampoweredrock on Jul 4, 2017 12:44:34 GMT
I love my Storm Towers. Sure I probably won't even consider them in the average list just on there own but consider:
When running a Storm Strider they are often RAT 8 or 10.
When running one or more Fireflies they are often hitting at POW 16, with D3 POW 12 leaps.
Which they can do from 17"/14" away.
When running Nemo3 with the above they can be dishing out 16+3D6 on the primary target and 12+3D6 on the leaps on his feat turn.
For 4 points each.
Stormsmith Stormcallers benefit from the same models/go in the same lists, where they they lack the sheer quantity most of the time but bring three (sometimes more) magic, stealth + concealment + cover + elevation-ignoring guns that can threaten 16" while shooting at RAT 8, dealing 12+3D6 on the feat turn, 12 otherwise and can be taken as one of the free things in Storm Division.
They certainly have reasons to exist (in Storm Division/With Nemo3).
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jul 4, 2017 12:48:14 GMT
The only problem of Storm Tower seems, d3 arc's randomness, and more importantly, gunner's SPD 2. They have only two members but he have SPD 2, so they can't move much even with run.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jul 4, 2017 12:54:19 GMT
The only problem of Storm Tower seems, d3 arc's randomness, and more importantly, gunner's SPD 2. They have only two members but he have SPD 2, so they can't move much even with run. I know random number of attacks is a pet peeve of yours, but it is actually fine on the Storm Tower. Also RNG 14" makes up for the 5" run and 3" walk
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 4, 2017 15:37:12 GMT
Actually it smacks of someone who has played those models . What do those models bring that isn't easily replicable with better models? There is no reason to put them into a list and thus they are unplayable. Here we go then, strap yourself in kids!
Avenger - Besides the Hurricane is the only knockdown gun on a jack in Cygnar, plus a decent pow 14, and one of our few boostable AOEs - 2" melee pow 18 is very respectable, plus auto-stationary on warjacks, try combining that with auto-disruption from Thorn
Thunderhead - just the threat of his pulse makes players clench their butthole, plus autohitting pulse and sustained attack means he can bypass all ranged defensive tech, with a caster like Caine 3 or Nemo 3 the damage he can put out is sickening, plus def 12, arm 19, 32 boxes is a great defensive stat for a heavy that you can stack any of our great defensive buffs on.
Cyclone this guy is worth considering for the utility of double handed throws alone, he is also a great target for marshalling to Gun Mages, then if he gets into melee he gets 3 x pow 16s with Crush
Reliant I hear people complaining about the cyclone not doing any damage if it wants to control infantry, well hey, here is a jack that can do both, the fact it is 2 point cheaper than a defender is not insignificant, it fulfils a slightly different role and has a place in some lists (like the lists of the guy who won Welsh Masters)
Storm Towers these things are nasty with Nemo 3, also Storm Lances have (will) lost e-leap on their guns, they provide good stealth infantry removal by using spark nodes
Stormblade Captain I can only assume you have never played Maddox in Storm Division, otherwise you would see the worth of tactician alone, let alone the fact he hits very hard.
Caine 1 The only caster with Snipe and Deadeye, magic guns for his entire battlegroup, that is unique enough to play him, especially now the Hurricane is out, you could make some disgusting SotT lists
Nemo 2 armour buff - check damage buff - check threat extender - check defensive buff - check focus efficiency - check great gun - check
If you can't think of some good Heavy Metal lists for this guy then you are just not trying
Stryker 3 in a world where Fyanna Oracles is apparently wrecking everyone's face, a caster that gives auto-hitting weaponmaster charge attacks seems like they would have a place, take that def 17 dodging angels
would you use these models in everylist? obviously not! but to say they do nothing that is not easily replicated is just patently absurd
Yeah, the avengers gun is so useful, it only stacks up against the hurricanes guns, ironclads, hammersmiths, force hammer (Haley 3), force hammer (siege 1), force hammer (nemo 3), quake (blockhouse), etc. It's melee is also hilariously short ranged for a 17 point heavy. Solid meh on that garbage. If opponents are scared of Thunderhead pulse then they need to go back to positioning school and learn more. 6" range pulse sucks and its a Pow 12. Wow, it's like a shitty charger with 6" range! Thunderhead is a 20 point derp with a bad gun and bad melee. Meh. The reliant is worse than a Hammersmith and melee and worse than a defender at range. It doesn't do either role well at all. The cyclone is 13 points, the marauder is 10". Taking him with shitty gun mages for the marginal utility seems really crappy. I guess if you like paying a premium for that package to not do much, more power to you. Caine 1 dies to a stiff breeze, lives in a world where deadeye isn't a big deal because I can boost all my ranged attacks without him and so is a crappy caster with snipe. Meh Lol, I have played Maddox in storm division since storm division has come out. You only need the storm captains tactician if you are a potato who doesn't know how to position properly. Nemo 2: very little feat. Check. No meaningful tempo swing or power, check. Nothing to spend the focus nemo gets on his feat turn, check. In a world where people are freaking out of fyanna oracles they need to sack up and play as it is like any other Max offensive list. You don't need stryker 3, just play like you aren't a potato. These models suck and you haven't made a convincing argument otherwise.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jul 4, 2017 15:41:52 GMT
Here we go then, strap yourself in kids!
Avenger - Besides the Hurricane is the only knockdown gun on a jack in Cygnar, plus a decent pow 14, and one of our few boostable AOEs - 2" melee pow 18 is very respectable, plus auto-stationary on warjacks, try combining that with auto-disruption from Thorn
Thunderhead - just the threat of his pulse makes players clench their butthole, plus autohitting pulse and sustained attack means he can bypass all ranged defensive tech, with a caster like Caine 3 or Nemo 3 the damage he can put out is sickening, plus def 12, arm 19, 32 boxes is a great defensive stat for a heavy that you can stack any of our great defensive buffs on.
Cyclone this guy is worth considering for the utility of double handed throws alone, he is also a great target for marshalling to Gun Mages, then if he gets into melee he gets 3 x pow 16s with Crush
Reliant I hear people complaining about the cyclone not doing any damage if it wants to control infantry, well hey, here is a jack that can do both, the fact it is 2 point cheaper than a defender is not insignificant, it fulfils a slightly different role and has a place in some lists (like the lists of the guy who won Welsh Masters)
Storm Towers these things are nasty with Nemo 3, also Storm Lances have (will) lost e-leap on their guns, they provide good stealth infantry removal by using spark nodes
Stormblade Captain I can only assume you have never played Maddox in Storm Division, otherwise you would see the worth of tactician alone, let alone the fact he hits very hard.
Caine 1 The only caster with Snipe and Deadeye, magic guns for his entire battlegroup, that is unique enough to play him, especially now the Hurricane is out, you could make some disgusting SotT lists
Nemo 2 armour buff - check damage buff - check threat extender - check defensive buff - check focus efficiency - check great gun - check
If you can't think of some good Heavy Metal lists for this guy then you are just not trying
Stryker 3 in a world where Fyanna Oracles is apparently wrecking everyone's face, a caster that gives auto-hitting weaponmaster charge attacks seems like they would have a place, take that def 17 dodging angels
would you use these models in everylist? obviously not! but to say they do nothing that is not easily replicated is just patently absurd
Yeah, the avengers gun is so useful, it only stacks up against the hurricanes guns, ironclads, hammersmiths, force hammer (Haley 3), force hammer (siege 1), force hammer (nemo 3), quake (blockhouse), etc. It's melee is also hilariously short ranged for a 17 point heavy. Solid meh on that garbage. If opponents are scared of Thunderhead pulse then they need to go back to positioning school and learn more. 6" range pulse sucks and its a Pow 12. Wow, it's like a shitty charger with 6" range! Thunderhead is a 20 point derp with a bad gun and bad melee. Meh. The reliant is worse than a Hammersmith and melee and worse than a defender at range. It doesn't do either role well at all. The cyclone is 13 points, the marauder is 10". Taking him with shitty gun mages for the marginal utility seems really crappy. I guess if you like paying a premium for that package to not do much, more power to you. Caine 1 dies to a stiff breeze, lives in a world where deadeye isn't a big deal because I can boost all my ranged attacks without him and so is a crappy caster with snipe. Meh Lol, I have played Maddox in storm division since storm division has come out. You only need the storm captains tactician if you are a potato who doesn't know how to position properly. Nemo 2: very little feat. Check. No meaningful tempo swing or power, check. Nothing to spend the focus nemo gets on his feat turn, check. In a world where people are freaking out of fyanna oracles they need to sack up and play as it is like any other Max offensive list. You don't need stryker 3, just play like you aren't a potato. These models suck and you haven't made a convincing argument otherwise. Sweet Jesus you are deluded, I was going to write a rebuttal but I seriously cannot be bothered
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jul 4, 2017 16:28:28 GMT
Here we go then, strap yourself in kids!
Avenger - Besides the Hurricane is the only knockdown gun on a jack in Cygnar, plus a decent pow 14, and one of our few boostable AOEs - 2" melee pow 18 is very respectable, plus auto-stationary on warjacks, try combining that with auto-disruption from Thorn Yeah, the avengers gun is so useful, it only stacks up against the hurricanes guns, ironclads, hammersmiths, force hammer (Haley 3), force hammer (siege 1), force hammer (nemo 3), quake (blockhouse), etc. It's melee is also hilariously short ranged for a 17 point heavy. Solid meh on that garbage. I don't think so. Avenger's usefulness and advantage is its gun, and it is an AOE knockdown attack, rather than only one of Hurricane. Also 1" melee range is already enough. It have a good gun but also have a P+S 18 melee weapon. Why you also need for the more RNG on the melee weapon to rate it as usable? Even in the new edition, RNG 2 melee weapon is not so common and it is really rare to the warjack with a proper gun(it exists, though, like Dynamo). And its melee weapon is reserved for the repel the enemy fronts that is close to your line, not the thing to smash the enemy's face first before they can consider charge. If you really want this, then you just need for a melee warjack. Don't expect that for the ranged warjacks, especially for the utility focused one.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 4, 2017 20:38:53 GMT
Yeah, the avengers gun is so useful, it only stacks up against the hurricanes guns, ironclads, hammersmiths, force hammer (Haley 3), force hammer (siege 1), force hammer (nemo 3), quake (blockhouse), etc. It's melee is also hilariously short ranged for a 17 point heavy. Solid meh on that garbage. If opponents are scared of Thunderhead pulse then they need to go back to positioning school and learn more. 6" range pulse sucks and its a Pow 12. Wow, it's like a shitty charger with 6" range! Thunderhead is a 20 point derp with a bad gun and bad melee. Meh. The reliant is worse than a Hammersmith and melee and worse than a defender at range. It doesn't do either role well at all. The cyclone is 13 points, the marauder is 10". Taking him with shitty gun mages for the marginal utility seems really crappy. I guess if you like paying a premium for that package to not do much, more power to you. Caine 1 dies to a stiff breeze, lives in a world where deadeye isn't a big deal because I can boost all my ranged attacks without him and so is a crappy caster with snipe. Meh Lol, I have played Maddox in storm division since storm division has come out. You only need the storm captains tactician if you are a potato who doesn't know how to position properly. Nemo 2: very little feat. Check. No meaningful tempo swing or power, check. Nothing to spend the focus nemo gets on his feat turn, check. In a world where people are freaking out of fyanna oracles they need to sack up and play as it is like any other Max offensive list. You don't need stryker 3, just play like you aren't a potato. These models suck and you haven't made a convincing argument otherwise. Sweet Jesus you are deluded, I was going to write a rebuttal but I seriously cannot be bothered Deluded? Jesus. Have some decorum. If you want to make an argument. Step up to the plate and put in the effort. If you want to snipe and moan then don't pretend that you are doing anything but having a hissy fit.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 4, 2017 20:42:54 GMT
Yeah, the avengers gun is so useful, it only stacks up against the hurricanes guns, ironclads, hammersmiths, force hammer (Haley 3), force hammer (siege 1), force hammer (nemo 3), quake (blockhouse), etc. It's melee is also hilariously short ranged for a 17 point heavy. Solid meh on that garbage. I don't think so. Avenger's usefulness and advantage is its gun, and it is an AOE knockdown attack, rather than only one of Hurricane. Also 1" melee range is already enough. It have a good gun but also have a P+S 18 melee weapon. Why you also need for the more RNG on the melee weapon to rate it as usable? Even in the new edition, RNG 2 melee weapon is not so common and it is really rare to the warjack with a proper gun(it exists, though, like Dynamo). And its melee weapon is reserved for the repel the enemy fronts that is close to your line, not the thing to smash the enemy's face first before they can consider charge. If you really want this, then you just need for a melee warjack. Don't expect that for the ranged warjacks, especially for the utility focused one. Its gun being an aoe really isn't that useful. We have better AOEs in faction. Also our faction doesn't need AOEs we have better options for killing infantry. Its melee its identical in threat, mat and power to a tremoring ironclad except the ironclad is 5 points cheaper and thr knockdown is more reliably useful than stationary on warjacks.
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Post by chillychinaman on Jul 4, 2017 21:50:58 GMT
Now I'll admit that I'm an awful player and proper tone is lost over the internet, but all I read from octaviusmaximus is "git gud scrubs." The validity of that statement is up for debate. Just out of curiosity, what are Cygnar's top tier, and thus in your eyes(probably), the only models worth taking, at least in any setting that is vaguely competitive.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 4, 2017 22:03:43 GMT
Now I'll admit that I'm an awful player and proper tone is lost over the internet, but all I read from octaviusmaximus is "git gud scrubs." The validity of that statement is up for debate. Just out of curiosity, what are Cygnar's top tier, and thus in your eyes(probably), the only models worth taking, at least in any setting that is vaguely competitive. Top tier? Or playable models? Playable stuff is "everything not on my list". The 3 models on my knockdown and rebuild section are the ones that I think are too strong or broken in concept and so are currently are the "top tier", I guess. Although I don't think much of kara.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jul 5, 2017 1:13:01 GMT
I don't think so. Avenger's usefulness and advantage is its gun, and it is an AOE knockdown attack, rather than only one of Hurricane. Also 1" melee range is already enough. It have a good gun but also have a P+S 18 melee weapon. Why you also need for the more RNG on the melee weapon to rate it as usable? Even in the new edition, RNG 2 melee weapon is not so common and it is really rare to the warjack with a proper gun(it exists, though, like Dynamo). And its melee weapon is reserved for the repel the enemy fronts that is close to your line, not the thing to smash the enemy's face first before they can consider charge. If you really want this, then you just need for a melee warjack. Don't expect that for the ranged warjacks, especially for the utility focused one. Its gun being an aoe really isn't that useful. We have better AOEs in faction. Also our faction doesn't need AOEs we have better options for killing infantry. Its melee its identical in threat, mat and power to a tremoring ironclad except the ironclad is 5 points cheaper and thr knockdown is more reliably useful than stationary on warjacks. It is. It knocked down the enemy more than 1. Its AOE is 4 so you can knockdown more enemy, and make a hole to draw the line of sight. And it only concerns about the target's DEF, nothing else, means that you can shoot at an enemy with low DEF and knock an enemy warcaster down regardless his DEF. Also, its knockdown shot's threat range is 14+a, while Tremor is 9+a. You can't argue the diffrence in points between the melee warjack and the ranged warjack in a game tha ranged weapon with proper range always need for a premium. I remember that someone compares Trencher Infantry and Steelhead Halberdiers and why Trencher Infantry is not cheap as the halberdiers ignore the fact that they have a military rifle. I admit that it was on MKII, where Trenchers are had a hard time, but that was just ridiculous. And, is there any diffrence with this?
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