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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jul 1, 2017 16:33:35 GMT
What do you want to happen? I understand there may be a desire for: A: Better MOW support B: Making him more a Melee Monster C: Just dropping stuff he doesn't use and a points discount.
But Im hoping for D:
Revise his Jack Marshalling Abilities
And maybe...Revise Jack Marshalling period.
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Post by kovnikninehouse on Jul 1, 2017 17:13:21 GMT
Vet leader MoW and keep desperate pace.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jul 1, 2017 17:17:10 GMT
As if he is a melee monster? I don't think that his melee prowess is good that much. Also you will not want SPD 4 solo missile even if you don't have Manhunters.
If I can add something, then I will add Veteran Leader[Man-o-War] and Tactician[Man-o-War], making him the better supporter and allow Man-o-War groups to work well with each other more. I think that Desperate Pace is already a good addition to them, but Tactician makes Demolition Corps easier to deliver(yes, if you also bring the shocktroopers to shield them, though), and Veteran Leader makes the shocktrooper's effective RAT by 6 so they can hits the enemy units by their gun as well, and also helps Bombardiers too.
Flank[Man-o-War] seems also good to work with the other Man-o-Wars, either join the charge of fellow shocktroopers/demolition corps or helping jammed Bombardiers. Although Slam already serve the similar role.
Of course, Desperate Pace should be keep. Or they are toooooo slow especially for the shocktroopers.
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Post by Cryptix on Jul 1, 2017 17:18:29 GMT
I'd settle for losing Jack Marshall and Drive: Assault for 4 points.
What I'm more interested in is new MOW units - one of my ideas was a unit wielding entirely Chain Guns. Oh, and for Bombadiers to get AOE 4 for consistency. And a UA for Demo Corps to get Rapid Sttike. And that large-based MOW in a jack with light stats and point cost. And for a MOW battle engine with the Conquests main gun and Reinforcements (Man-o-War). It hoes on and on.
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Post by borderprince on Jul 1, 2017 20:16:51 GMT
What do you want to happen? I understand there may be a desire for: A: Better MOW support B: Making him more a Melee Monster C: Just dropping stuff he doesn't use and a points discount. But Im hoping for D: Revise his Jack Marshalling Abilities And maybe...Revise Jack Marshalling period. I should probably point out that I've been happy to pay 5 points for the Kovnik in Mk3. 4 points feels too cheap for a tough solo who can do some work personally and provides an excellent buff. I don't think he needs to be changed. (1) Jack marshalling by the Kovnik has never made that much sense to me (or been given much of a fluff justification), so I'd be happy for it to go. If he has to keep it, change Assault to something like the marshalled jack is able to slam (and trample?) without using Focus? Would work really nicely with a Devastator and parallels his personal ability too. He'd be Khador's bowling champion. [As a side note - jack marshalling is a really problematic ability in a game focused on Warcasters. The whole point of warcasters is that they are meant to be able to use jacks more effectively than jack marshalls, so a caster run jack should perform better if you want to keep the IK feel. But then why bother with jack marshalling? It would work better if PP had a game that didn't revolve around casters, or where casters were less central to it.] (2) I like him having the slam ability, as it plays into the feel of MoW as mini-jacks by giving them jack abilities. It doesn't come up often, but can be handy in a pinch. (3) I don't want the Kovnik to have too much support for MoW, beyond Desperate Pace (which was so useful). In general I think Khador is less about solos which are only about support - they give some useful abilities, but also pull weight on their own (the Iron Fang Kovnik is a good example - nice abilities, but a pretty good combat model too, especially in LoS; similarly the Forgeseer - buffs jacks, but has a good magic missle with an unusually high POW). So making him heavy on support isn't the right Khador 'feel'. If he were to give support, I'd like it to be something that isn't replicated elsewhere in Khador (like tactician is in Irusk2, or the various means we have of giving Pathfinder). Maybe confer a jack-like ability on the units? Tramples or slams could be interesting. Not game-breaking, but interesting. I understand the Veteran Leader approach, that type of ability risks closing off the space for new developments by providing a generic buff, so I'd rather avoid it. Even with the MoW models which currently exist, it risks making MoW very accurate melee infantry (MAT8!), making it considerably harder to jam them reliably. Drakhuns could get to MAT9 with the cavalry charge bonus too, meaning even the highest DEF models would be at serious risk of being hit. I'm not sure that's something PP would want. There might also need to be careful balancing/wording to handle the veteran leader ability in relation to a MoW typed Battle Engine. Frankly, Veteran Leader would be a way to try and resolve the issues that Demo Corps and especially Bombardiers have, but without really getting to the heart of the issue in either case. It's bad game design to approach the issue from that perspective. When/if the Kovnik goes into CID, it will probably be at the same time as the rest of the MoW, so it would be better to try and fix those units directly. (4) I'd rather go with something that ups his personal melee potential. Flank or Gang would work. That encourages you to use him in melee once the rest of the MoW are engaged and makes him a pretty decent end-game threat.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jul 1, 2017 21:03:45 GMT
What do you want to happen? I understand there may be a desire for: A: Better MOW support B: Making him more a Melee Monster C: Just dropping stuff he doesn't use and a points discount. But Im hoping for D: Revise his Jack Marshalling Abilities And maybe...Revise Jack Marshalling period. I should probably point out that I've been happy to pay 5 points for the Kovnik in Mk3. 4 points feels too cheap for a tough solo who can do some work personally and provides an excellent buff. I don't think he needs to be changed. (1) Jack marshalling by the Kovnik has never made that much sense to me (or been given much of a fluff justification), so I'd be happy for it to go. If he has to keep it, change Assault to something like the marshalled jack is able to slam (and trample?) without using Focus? Would work really nicely with a Devastator and parallels his personal ability too. He'd be Khador's bowling champion. [As a side note - jack marshalling is a really problematic ability in a game focused on Warcasters. The whole point of warcasters is that they are meant to be able to use jacks more effectively than jack marshalls, so a caster run jack should perform better if you want to keep the IK feel. But then why bother with jack marshalling? It would work better if PP had a game that didn't revolve around casters, or where casters were less central to it.] (2) I like him having the slam ability, as it plays into the feel of MoW as mini-jacks by giving them jack abilities. It doesn't come up often, but can be handy in a pinch. (3) I don't want the Kovnik to have too much support for MoW, beyond Desperate Pace (which was so useful). In general I think Khador is less about solos which are only about support - they give some useful abilities, but also pull weight on their own (the Iron Fang Kovnik is a good example - nice abilities, but a pretty good combat model too, especially in LoS; similarly the Forgeseer - buffs jacks, but has a good magic missle with an unusually high POW). So making him heavy on support isn't the right Khador 'feel'. If he were to give support, I'd like it to be something that isn't replicated elsewhere in Khador (like tactician is in Irusk2, or the various means we have of giving Pathfinder). Maybe confer a jack-like ability on the units? Tramples or slams could be interesting. Not game-breaking, but interesting. I understand the Veteran Leader approach, that type of ability risks closing off the space for new developments by providing a generic buff, so I'd rather avoid it. Even with the MoW models which currently exist, it risks making MoW very accurate melee infantry (MAT8!), making it considerably harder to jam them reliably. Drakhuns could get to MAT9 with the cavalry charge bonus too, meaning even the highest DEF models would be at serious risk of being hit. I'm not sure that's something PP would want. There might also need to be careful balancing/wording to handle the veteran leader ability in relation to a MoW typed Battle Engine. Frankly, Veteran Leader would be a way to try and resolve the issues that Demo Corps and especially Bombardiers have, but without really getting to the heart of the issue in either case. It's bad game design to approach the issue from that perspective. When/if the Kovnik goes into CID, it will probably be at the same time as the rest of the MoW, so it would be better to try and fix those units directly. (4) I'd rather go with something that ups his personal melee potential. Flank or Gang would work. That encourages you to use him in melee once the rest of the MoW are engaged and makes him a pretty decent end-game threat. It seems reasonable. So, what about these then? -Add Leadership[Man-O-War unit] that gives Slam Power Attack ability. -Add Flank[Man-o-War]-Add Tactician[Man-o-War]-Replace Drive: Assault by Drive: Reposition[3"]Unfortunately, Khador lacks the warjacks with Accumulator(actually, only a few factions are able to take this) nor jacks that able to get the focus from the other source(other than Ruin, but it needs to kill the enemy first), so give a proper heavy warjack to a 'Jack Marshal is not a wise plan anyways(a marshaled heavy warjack needs at least 2 focus points to be work as much as a fully focused warjack, while in melee). And still Khador have many warjacks with ranged weapon. So maybe adding Assault works fine... But what about Reposition on the warjacks? I think that it works well with Man-o-War. Due to their medium size and large size of the heavy warjacks, both Man-o-War and heavy warjacks are not able to get the same target well, or they can hamper each other's movement. By adding Reposition on the warjacks, warjacks can make the way to the Man-o-War after their attacks. Is it seems good?
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Post by Cryptix on Jul 1, 2017 21:10:02 GMT
Yeah no, no way they're giving shocktroopers slams. They're already really strong into scenario, that might push them into OP.
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Post by critfreeze on Jul 2, 2017 0:15:26 GMT
It's already been said in the thread, but I'll just repeat it: Either lose Jack Marshal and go to 4 points or gain a useful Drive. Repo 3", Shield Guard, Counterslam, Retaliation, Aggressive, basically anything other than Assault. Assault is a cool drive, but it's not very much fun in our faction, especially with the Forge Seer out there for a point cheaper.
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Post by steamwitch on Jul 2, 2017 0:15:29 GMT
What do you want to happen? I understand there may be a desire for: A: Better MOW support B: Making him more a Melee Monster C: Just dropping stuff he doesn't use and a points discount. But Im hoping for D: Revise his Jack Marshalling Abilities And maybe...Revise Jack Marshalling period. Reach on his weapon is something he was missing since mk1. I would like to see added. Also a hurry rig of sorts. +2spd and d3 damage would be cool.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 2, 2017 1:38:11 GMT
The Man o War Kovnik is strong. Especially when free.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 2, 2017 18:01:25 GMT
Make his Jack marshall not completely overshadowed by Seer's. Year later and still nobody can make sense of Assault on Khador jacks. The only one that can meaningfully use it already has it by itself.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jul 3, 2017 4:14:52 GMT
And maybe...Revise Jack Marshalling period. Jack Marshal rules are fine (great even). The Kovnik's problem is that his Drive is not worth taking a Jack out of the battle group. The Forge Seer on the other hand has a compelling reason to do so.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jul 3, 2017 6:16:35 GMT
Back in MkII I kept trying to get the MOW Kovnik to work (even though he never did). Why? Simple: MAT 8 P+S 15 Weaponmaster. No matter how crappy he was, at least I knew that if he got into melee, he was going to do some damage.
In MkIII he got better in many ways (though not as a jack marshal): more initial attacks, much better synergy with MOW, arguably a tiny bit cheaper; overall I get the impression that he sees much more use. But I don't like him anymore, for the very simple reason that he lost Weaponmaster. Yes, it's stupid, but I just liked the idea of that one massive hit that no-one short of a Butcher or a Stryker could match.
So personally, unless they give him back Weaponmaster, then he's dead to me.
Other than than, either drop Marshal and make him 4 points (so he's just there as MOW support); I don't think he's overpriced compared to the Forge Seer at that point, or give him an actual useful Drive - although it would have to be VERY useful to make him worth taking as a Marshal over a Forge Seer, so honestly I just don't think that's the way to go anymore.
If they gave him Reposition, would he be worth taking for caster-independant Kodiak cloud-walls? Right now I can't tell if that would be over-costed or over-powered.
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Post by MrHaystacks on Jul 3, 2017 10:41:39 GMT
I like him. If he needs a change, as said above, Is to change is drive. The only one that makes sense is Aggressive. It would add a great niche that could help out our beleaguered Zerker, rager and mad dogs.
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Post by kovnikninehouse on Jul 3, 2017 12:50:27 GMT
As much as we would like him to loose jack marshaling to make him cheaper. He is not gonna loose jack marshaling as their is some fluff with them jack marshaling.
Personally I don't like him as a jack marshal as his cost plus the cost of the MoW unit you are gonna play with him is high enough that I don't want to add in at least another 14pts to play a jack that makes use of his abilities.
I still use him and like him.
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