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Post by darkshroud on Oct 15, 2017 6:21:18 GMT
You can use a merc solo now. So go crazy with ogrun.
Drop the inflictor for something else.
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Post by lordsizzlor on Oct 16, 2017 5:21:25 GMT
I've played a bunch of games with shade3 fleet and ive paired my battle group down to 2 Leviathans. I don't bring arc nodes.
Leviathans are good because they work early game with minimal focus, allowing for more mockeries. Then late game pathfinder, infernal machine and darkshroud makes them a potential threat.
Bonus trick is you can freeze a heavy with a pistol wraith/feat and then shoot with your 2d3 auto hitting pow 17s.
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Kavrae
Junior Strategist
Posts: 182 
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Post by Kavrae on Oct 16, 2017 11:35:54 GMT
I've played a bunch of games with shade3 fleet and ive paired my battle group down to 2 Leviathans. I don't bring arc nodes. Leviathans are good because they work early game with minimal focus, allowing for more mockeries. Then late game pathfinder, infernal machine and darkshroud makes them a potential threat. Bonus trick is you can freeze a heavy with a pistol wraith/feat and then shoot with your 2d3 auto hitting pow 17s. Double Leviathans sounds solid. Would also give me an extra 4 points to play with allowing me to keep the Pistol Wraith once Agrimony is out, or trade it for Ragman, Saxon Orrik, or Eilish. How does the pair compare to a Kraken though, which runs rampant with Infernal Machine? Leviathan + Harrower also seems like a decent option, since Shade3 loves the Harrower (Infernal + Feat). |
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Post by lordsizzlor on Oct 16, 2017 17:49:51 GMT
I think the big difference between the kraken and double Leviathans is how much board do you want to control? So both option could work depending on what you need.
Kraken has a bigger better gun and melee threat buts it's concentrated into covering a certain zone or sitting in the middle of the table and hoping there isn't a house there.
Double Leviathans get to spread out more and affect multiple areas of the board. While less of a melee threat, 2d3 shots actually does more damage turn after turn, it's just less reliable. So think of them as a consistent attrition piece and not an single assassinator.
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npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
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Post by npe on Oct 16, 2017 21:34:16 GMT
I think the big difference between the kraken and double Leviathans is how much board do you want to control? So both option could work depending on what you need. Kraken has a bigger better gun and melee threat buts it's concentrated into covering a certain zone or sitting in the middle of the table and hoping there isn't a house there. Double Leviathans get to spread out more and affect multiple areas of the board. While less of a melee threat, 2d3 shots actually does more damage turn after turn, it's just less reliable. So think of them as a consistent attrition piece and not an single assassinator. That's actually one of the places Denny2's feat becomes really useful. After you paint the opposing caster with an AOE or other shot those 2d3(or 3d3/4d3) shots combined with a debuff can vaporize a lot of casters. Edit: just to add, since you guys are talking about Gore3. You can get much the same effect by using a machine wraith/blackbane to stationary for the pop and drop. |
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Kavrae
Junior Strategist
Posts: 182
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Post by Kavrae on Oct 17, 2017 14:42:07 GMT
I think the big difference between the kraken and double Leviathans is how much board do you want to control? So both option could work depending on what you need. Kraken has a bigger better gun and melee threat buts it's concentrated into covering a certain zone or sitting in the middle of the table and hoping there isn't a house there. Double Leviathans get to spread out more and affect multiple areas of the board. While less of a melee threat, 2d3 shots actually does more damage turn after turn, it's just less reliable. So think of them as a consistent attrition piece and not an single assassinator. That's actually one of the places Denny2's feat becomes really useful. After you paint the opposing caster with an AOE or other shot those 2d3(or 3d3/4d3) shots combined with a debuff can vaporize a lot of casters. Edit: just to add, since you guys are talking about Gore3. You can get much the same effect by using a machine wraith/blackbane to stationary for the pop and drop. That's certainly the plan. Incorporeal models (wraiths and blackbanes) perform a dual role of scenario play, and FEAT sacrifice targets. While it would be nice to take over a Heavy Jack with a Machine Wraith or charge into a full low arm unit with the Blackbanes to double their numbers, that's more wishful thinking than realistic. Still working out whether I want to run it with a Kraken or Leviathan + Harrower to make use of those easy frozen targets. Might just require some playtesting to see which works best for me. Though I am leaning towards the Kraken, just because I want to paint/base one of them. |
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Kavrae
Junior Strategist
Posts: 182
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Post by Kavrae on Apr 25, 2018 15:16:33 GMT
6 months and several playtests later, I have some updates to the Dark Host army. Much of this time was taken up by painting and a local Warhammer hiatus (tends to happen around the winter holidays). I've detailed out what I've changed, why, and what playstyle changes I've implemented with the help of some much more experienced players.
Sadly the Ghost Fleet sits unfinished, with only the warcaster and solos finished (minus Agrimony). With $120 in infantry, and $80-140 (extra 40 in Kraken modifications) in warjacks to go, I may not even do the ghost fleet. I'm currently looking at Black Industries as a cheaper replacement using models I already own (like Reaper + Malice).
Lich Lord Asphyxious (+28)
Theme: Dark Host
Deathripper (BG: 6)
Deathripper (BG: 6)
Inflictor (BG: 13)
Stalker (BG: 3 PC: 5)
Wraith Engine (PC: 15)
Darragh Wrathe (PC: 9)
Bane Lord Tartarus (Free)
Bane Riders Leader & 4 Grunts (PC: 20)
Bane Warriors Leader & 9 Grunts (PC: 16)
Bane Warriors Officer & Standard (Free)
Bane Warriors Leader & 5 Grunts (PC: 10)
Bane Warriors Officer & Standard (Free)
Army Changes
Stalker + Cankerworm + Scavenger was a good idea on paper and a collection of assassins to remove key targets that the Banes can't reach, but it never played out in reality. The light jacks were rarely ever able to get into position to inflict any damage, let alone remove valuable targets. They just ended up as wasted battlegroup points that I could rarely find a good spot for. Cankerworm and Scavenger have been replaced. Stalker is being kept because, while it rarely killed anything, its projected threat was always enough to force my opponent to work around it, unlike the other two.
I attempted to replace the warjacks with a Desecrator, but every army combination I tried ended up either 1 point short, or losing too many Banes (warriors or riders) to be worth it. Instead, I opted for the Inflictor again. This time, I will be running it forward with my Bane Riders and Wraith Engine, to protect them instead of Asphyxious. If Asphyxious is getting shot, with clouds and teleports, then I've done something wrong. It then gives me a solid heavy hitter than can swing over the Banes' heads when the armies collide.
A second Deathripper allows me to play more aggressively on turn 2, while still retaining my arc node capacity for later turns. I've tried multiple games with only one, thinking it would be enough, but it never is. This allows me to do a sacrificial Parasite run on turn 2 (or bottom of 1 if possible), whereas before I was more hesitant to lose the single arc.
Darragh Wrathe is a model I've been bouncing back and forth on. I tried a test game with him... and the result is that I'm buying one next week. While Death Ride is nice for getting those SPD 5 models up the field slightly faster, the real value is in Mortal Fear. It makes the Bane Riders obnoxiously difficult to remove, and massively increases Bane survivability with tough plus WE aura.
As a nice bonus, it increases Asphyxious' assassination threat range by 2" (one for himself, one for the charging banes).
One Bane Warrior unit was dropped to a min unit to help pay for DW. While I miss the symmetry, it didn't make a huge different in how I utilized the Bane Warriors. I tried a few theoretical builds utilizing three min units with UAs, but it just doesn't work out unless I drop Tartarus to use the Free Solo/Attachment on the 3rd UA.
Sadly, my four solos had to go to make room for the Inflictor and Darragh Wrathe. I will miss the soul collection and random objective contesting, but I think it will be worth the loss.
Playstyle Changes
I've been playing far too passively, which explains why I've had so much trouble against gunlines, even with this heavily anti-shooting army. Bane Riders are more durable than how I've been treating them and jamming is far more effective than I expected.
Cloud placement needs a LOT of work, but it's getting there.
When in doubt, make a mess. During a few turns where I absolutely could not come up with a game plan to make a comeback or win... it's amazing how effective it was to just make a mess of the field. Charge my cavalry to their front lines, kill some cheap roadbump troops, then reposition into melee range of as many models as possible (I don't care what). Run Banes up to do the same (out of charge range, or blocked by LOS issues). Mortal Fear covering the first 2" in front of my infantry, with little protection for DW. Triple corrosive cloud on top of their mass of troops to force them to move or get corroded. Daemamortis on top of the largest concentration of troops that are engaged. Hide Asphyxious behind a forest and wait for them to sort out the mess. This might also be a decent plan in the future to run down an opponent's clock if I can speed up my gameplay.
Learned during a Siege2 game that Asphyxious's assassination run can be accomplished on the bottom of turn 1 if my opponent runs up too far (12" from their deployment zone). Stab my own Banes in the back. Darragh Wrathe Death Ride. Activate Asphyxious2. 5" walk + 1" Death Ride + 3" respawn feat + 8" bane charge + 1" Death Ride + 1" reach = 19" weapon master charge. 18" if I want three of them to hit the target.
Be more careful with my Standard Bearers. I lost a few standard bearers as early as the top of turn 2 because I wasn't more careful about how they were placed or how many troops I had around them. Pickup order is also very important. It's amazing how much more quickly Banes can fall once they lose Tough, even if it is only a 1 in 3 chance.
Game Plan. My previous game plan was always one of attrition, while keeping an eye out for assassination, and using solos to hold/contest objectives. I was all over the place, trying to run everything at once. It spread my play and army building too thin. Assassination NEVER happened, and I always fell behind on objectives regardless. Focusing 100% on attrition (through resurrection and armor buffing) helps to solidify my game plan and remove excess models from my army for the more important pieces.
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Post by tiberius on Apr 25, 2018 16:09:22 GMT
With dark host, I have found it pays to be as aggressive as possible in most games. The banes need to close and you put it well, make a mess of the field and let your opponent sort it out. If you do it well enough, while they are trying to clear out a wave of tough troops, you have a second wave ready to charge in and clean up.
As far as the scavenger goes, I agree, I have never got the thing to work as well as it sounds on paper and my opponents never fear it enough, unlike the stalker. Cankerworm on the other hand, I have a lot of great success with and almost always get a lot of work done from him.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Apr 26, 2018 6:00:32 GMT
Have you considered squeezing in a min unit of Knights? They're not tough weapon masters, but their 2" melee range does help with getting more models into the same target on feat turn. With Dark Shroud and Brutal Charge they also hit about as hard as standard Bane Warriors on the charge. They're also a pretty decent front line unit with Darragh supporting them (14/20 against living charges)
Asphyxious 2 is actually the only DH list I would play without the Wraith Engine as your clouds are your shooting protection and you already have plenty of Dark Shroud in the list. Adding in a couple of Machine Wraiths instead both helps you on scenario and covers basically what the Wraith Engine does (make Machine Wraiths)
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