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Post by steampoweredrock on Jul 2, 2017 19:22:40 GMT
I feel that she needs two things to work:
1) A Mob of ideally 30+ warrior models, threatening enough that the opponent must try and chew through them even as they get tougher or face massive damage from them the next turn, fragile enough that a decent number (6+) die before the rest become too tough to keep trying to hurt, so that the feat actually generates a large pile of focus, in addition to protecting a large number of models so they can dish out pain.
2) A good way to spend the large pile of focus that accumulates.
The ideal I think would be if she could spam (ie field 30+) reasonably priced Morrowan units that were spd6+, 2" reach, straight up pow 11+ weapon masters with nasty critical hit effects as they would tick all the boxes (including a way to usefully spend focus boosting for critical hits).
Trying to look at the options that do exist for 1):
Precursor Knights and Stormblades both struggle, because they aren't that fast, aren't that cheap, aren't that spammable and they both lose a lot if the opponent can just pick off certain key models, massively reducing the threat that they pose even if only a few can be killed. The Precursors can spend focus, but mat 7 blessed rarely need to boost to hit and they can't boost damage if they charge, so won't actually do it often.
Sword knights are cheap enough, almost fast enough, almost hit hard enough, but needing warjacks to be up front with them gives the opponent an option for ignoring them and nullifying the feat by just hitting the jacks instead.
Stormguard lack the damage and aren't quite fast enough, though for once being the cheap, fragile storm knights is actually a plus point for them when being considered here.
Threatening with ranged units would feel very strange as they wouldn't benefit from her one delivery aid (Crusader's call) but they die like any other so it might be worth at least considering the likes of trencher infantry and trencher long gunners moving forward ("go on, kill these 20 TLG behind these 10 silverline or face duel shot" kind of thing?)
No options seem exactly great.
Looking at options for 2)
Personal combat: Unlikely, because her threat simply isn't the massive kind it would need to be, but if you could actually deliver her to an enemy caster, a big pile of focus spent killing them could work. Unreliable overall.
Arcing Sunburst: Its a solid spell, and keeping a node back until it is time to run it to within 10" of the enemy should be doable. You'd need a truly spectacular pile of focus to really make a big impact though. If the node is far enough forward on forward to attempt a caster kill the next turn, the opponent will probably choose to kill it instead of hitting troops, so it is probably limited to hitting the opponents army.
Allocating to a bunch of warjacks: Difficult to field enough jacks to really use a lot of focus, while fielding enough infantry for 1), difficult to keep those jacks back out of the way and still be effective, if you have a lot of points in jacks, then the likes of Stryker1 who can give them all +5 arm along with the troops, or Nemo2 who can give them all +2" movement and a mountain of focus, or Nemo3/Haley3 who can allocate buckets of focus every turn might be more reliable options anyway.
Radiance of Morrow: Friendly Morrowan models spend it boosting. You will field Gallant and out of theme Harlan Versh, for sure, but keeping Gallant back and still being in position to use focus might be tough as with other melee jacks and Versh is just one guy (who opponents will try very hard to kill, if they know about this)
In Summary (of what just turned into a wall of text): Difficult to build an army anything like she wants in Cygnar, difficult to actually take advantage of the benefits even if you get close. I'm very curious if anyone can think of a twist that helps shake it up though.
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Post by Aegis on Jul 2, 2017 22:10:39 GMT
Overtake would go a long way into making Constance herself a credible melee threat (and into making stacking focus relevant)
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 2, 2017 22:16:00 GMT
I don't necessarily think that constance wants a lot of models. If your opponent has the capacity to kill stryker infantry they have the capacity to kill 5 constance infantry at least and then more.
One of the primary problems is the lack of anything to spend the focus on except clutch sunbursts and maybe charging in and killing some thing before dying.
No idea what to do with constance in cygnar.
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Post by snarlyyow on Jul 30, 2017 23:06:02 GMT
Connie is pretty good in Storm Division, better than anyone thinks. With Advance move from the Stormblades, if Connie goes first, the Stormblades threaten the 33" line TOP OF TWO if you cast Crusader's Call. Combined with her feat that's a lot of hard hitting, hard to kill dudes that prolly gets you to turn 4 before she loses steam and helps jam your opponent out of scenario.
The list you're taking is something like: Gallant and a Lancer, 2 units of Stormblades, 2 min units of Lances, Katherine Laddermore, Junior + Firefly. It really builds itself. It's pushing 25-ish guys way down the table, they're hard to get rid of, and they hit like a ton of bricks. Sometimes you will combine the blade's mini-feat with her feat, sometimes you won't and just be all that much harder to kill for another turn. She's no OP or top tier, but she's not the bottom of our barrel anymore either. In a game of premeasuring having a threat extender is excellent and having upkeep removal is always relevant.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 31, 2017 3:48:04 GMT
Connie is pretty good in Storm Division, better than anyone thinks. With Advance move from the Stormblades, if Connie goes first, the Stormblades threaten the 33" line TOP OF TWO if you cast Crusader's Call . Combined with her feat that's a lot of hard hitting, hard to kill dudes that prolly gets you to turn 4 before she loses steam and helps jam your opponent out of scenario. The list you're taking is something like: Gallant and a Lancer, 2 units of Stormblades, 2 min units of Lances, Katherine Laddermore, Junior + Firefly. It really builds itself. It's pushing 25-ish guys way down the table, they're hard to get rid of, and they hit like a ton of bricks. Sometimes you will combine the blade's mini-feat with her feat, sometimes you won't and just be all that much harder to kill for another turn. She's no OP or top tier, but she's not the bottom of our barrel anymore either. In a game of premeasuring having a threat extender is excellent and having upkeep removal is always relevant. Siege 2 will do it better.
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crow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 310
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Post by crow on Jul 31, 2017 4:34:22 GMT
I already posted in another thread, but I made a blaize list that does pretty good.
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Post by snarlyyow on Jul 31, 2017 18:49:01 GMT
Connie is pretty good in Storm Division, better than anyone thinks. With Advance move from the Stormblades, if Connie goes first, the Stormblades threaten the 33" line TOP OF TWO if you cast Crusader's Call . Combined with her feat that's a lot of hard hitting, hard to kill dudes that prolly gets you to turn 4 before she loses steam and helps jam your opponent out of scenario. The list you're taking is something like: Gallant and a Lancer, 2 units of Stormblades, 2 min units of Lances, Katherine Laddermore, Junior + Firefly. It really builds itself. It's pushing 25-ish guys way down the table, they're hard to get rid of, and they hit like a ton of bricks. Sometimes you will combine the blade's mini-feat with her feat, sometimes you won't and just be all that much harder to kill for another turn. She's no OP or top tier, but she's not the bottom of our barrel anymore either. In a game of premeasuring having a threat extender is excellent and having upkeep removal is always relevant. Siege 2 will do it better. An additional 3" of threat for a single turn is pretty okay. And Fury is great. But I don't see how they do the same thing. Siege doesn't have upkeep removal and I'm unsure Siege wants to run Stormblades; I'll need to playtest that.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jul 31, 2017 19:08:15 GMT
Siege 2 will do it better. An additional 3" of threat for a single turn is pretty okay. And Fury is great. But I don't see how they do the same thing. Siege doesn't have upkeep removal and I'm unsure Siege wants to run Stormblades; I'll need to playtest that. I am unsure why Blaize wants Stormblade Infantry. Why she need for such a fragile unit that simply dying out without a defensive buff? Also they don't need her either, for she lacks defensive buffs and ranged accuracy buffs. Honestly, is there any advantage over Haley3? Even Stryker2 does much better than her. Just for +2 charge range you can hire Lanyssa Ryssyl instead as well.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jul 31, 2017 20:17:06 GMT
An additional 3" of threat for a single turn is pretty okay. And Fury is great. But I don't see how they do the same thing. Siege doesn't have upkeep removal and I'm unsure Siege wants to run Stormblades; I'll need to playtest that. I am unsure why Blaize wants Stormblade Infantry. Why she need for such a fragile unit that simply dying out without a defensive buff? Also they don't need her either, for she lacks defensive buffs and ranged accuracy buffs. Honestly, is there any advantage over Haley3? Even Stryker2 does much better than her. Just for +2 charge range you can hire Lanyssa Ryssyl instead as well. The problem with Lanyssa is that: 1) only targets one enemy model 2) requires making an attack roll 3) does not work against spell immune models 4) currently have to break theme
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jul 31, 2017 20:25:49 GMT
I am unsure why Blaize wants Stormblade Infantry. Why she need for such a fragile unit that simply dying out without a defensive buff? Also they don't need her either, for she lacks defensive buffs and ranged accuracy buffs. Honestly, is there any advantage over Haley3? Even Stryker2 does much better than her. Just for +2 charge range you can hire Lanyssa Ryssyl instead as well. The problem with Lanyssa is that: 1) only targets one enemy model 2) requires making an attack roll 3) does not work against spell immune models 4) currently have to break theme Only targets one enemy model is enough, for you will need to dismantle a warjack/warbeast by them. Also against such targets making an attack roll is not a serious problem either, and only a few of them are immune to magic attack. And, why you care for brack the theme for you are already need to also hire Rhupert Carvolo?
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jul 31, 2017 20:57:54 GMT
The problem with Lanyssa is that: 1) only targets one enemy model 2) requires making an attack roll 3) does not work against spell immune models 4) currently have to break theme Only targets one enemy model is enough, for you will need to dismantle a warjack/warbeast by them. Also against such targets making an attack roll is not a serious problem either, and only a few of them are immune to magic attack. And, why you care for brack the theme for you are already need to also hire Rhupert Carvolo? What if you want to charge more than 1 model, what if it has stealth? Or has concealment for high defense, or on the other side of the board to Lanyssa? My point is Crusaders Call is not made obsolete by the Existence of Lanyssa, not in the slightest
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jul 31, 2017 21:23:52 GMT
Only targets one enemy model is enough, for you will need to dismantle a warjack/warbeast by them. Also against such targets making an attack roll is not a serious problem either, and only a few of them are immune to magic attack. And, why you care for brack the theme for you are already need to also hire Rhupert Carvolo? What if you want to charge more than 1 model, what if it has stealth? Or has concealment for high defense, or on the other side of the board to Lanyssa? My point is Crusaders Call is not made obsolete by the Existence of Lanyssa, not in the slightest I don't think that you need to charge two units of Stormblade Infantry since there is only one Rhupert Carvolo. And, only need for increase the charge range of one more unit is really a reason to take a warcaster? Discard the other advantages to take a warcaster? There are only a few warjacks and warbeasts that have Stealth, and the most of them are really fragile. Sloan, or one or two GMCA would be a solution for Stealth issue. After removing Stealth you can shoot them to death instead as well, without charge. Else with the accuracy buff they can simply dismantle the Slayer chassis solely by their Assault ranged attacks. If about 5 of them are reliably charge the enemy with +2 movement, then it is no wonder that they can make the ranged attack when they make Assault, isn't? I do think that Crusader's Call is a good spell. But, it is too pity if it is the only benefit for a warcaster. We need to have something more, and for our fragile melee options the defensive buff is a mandatory choice to ever think about to use them. And Blaize has nothing. Don't say 'but her feat increases ARM', for in the same time Stryker1 just give them a flat +5 ARM for one turn, and Haley3 gives them +2 DEF all the times. Also Blaize needs our precious but fragile soldiers to be killed by the enemy, but despite the nature of melee combatant that expect for some losses while delivering, they are not so cheap to be throw away like this.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 31, 2017 22:19:13 GMT
What if you want to charge more than 1 model, what if it has stealth? Or has concealment for high defense, or on the other side of the board to Lanyssa? My point is Crusaders Call is not made obsolete by the Existence of Lanyssa, not in the slightest I don't think that you need to charge two units of Stormblade Infantry since there is only one Rhupert Carvolo. And, only need for increase the charge range of one more unit is really a reason to take a warcaster? Discard the other advantages to take a warcaster? There are only a few warjacks and warbeasts that have Stealth, and the most of them are really fragile. Sloan, or one or two GMCA would be a solution for Stealth issue. After removing Stealth you can shoot them to death instead as well, without charge. Else with the accuracy buff they can simply dismantle the Slayer chassis solely by their Assault ranged attacks. If about 5 of them are reliably charge the enemy with +2 movement, then it is no wonder that they can make the ranged attack when they make Assault, isn't? I do think that Crusader's Call is a good spell. But, it is too pity if it is the only benefit for a warcaster. We need to have something more, and for our fragile melee options the defensive buff is a mandatory choice to ever think about to use them. And Blaize has nothing. Don't say 'but her feat increases ARM', for in the same time Stryker1 just give them a flat +5 ARM for one turn, and Haley3 gives them +2 DEF all the times. Also Blaize needs our precious but fragile soldiers to be killed by the enemy, but despite the nature of melee combatant that expect for some losses while delivering, they are not so cheap to be throw away like this. Uhh why do you need a rhupert per unit of stormblades? How much pathfinder are you planning on encountering?
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Post by droopingpuppy on Aug 1, 2017 0:38:30 GMT
I don't think that you need to charge two units of Stormblade Infantry since there is only one Rhupert Carvolo. And, only need for increase the charge range of one more unit is really a reason to take a warcaster? Discard the other advantages to take a warcaster? There are only a few warjacks and warbeasts that have Stealth, and the most of them are really fragile. Sloan, or one or two GMCA would be a solution for Stealth issue. After removing Stealth you can shoot them to death instead as well, without charge. Else with the accuracy buff they can simply dismantle the Slayer chassis solely by their Assault ranged attacks. If about 5 of them are reliably charge the enemy with +2 movement, then it is no wonder that they can make the ranged attack when they make Assault, isn't? I do think that Crusader's Call is a good spell. But, it is too pity if it is the only benefit for a warcaster. We need to have something more, and for our fragile melee options the defensive buff is a mandatory choice to ever think about to use them. And Blaize has nothing. Don't say 'but her feat increases ARM', for in the same time Stryker1 just give them a flat +5 ARM for one turn, and Haley3 gives them +2 DEF all the times. Also Blaize needs our precious but fragile soldiers to be killed by the enemy, but despite the nature of melee combatant that expect for some losses while delivering, they are not so cheap to be throw away like this. Uhh why do you need a rhupert per unit of stormblades? How much pathfinder are you planning on encountering? Not so often, but I do need for the concealment or Tough.
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Post by snarlyyow on Aug 1, 2017 0:40:55 GMT
What if you want to charge more than 1 model, what if it has stealth? Or has concealment for high defense, or on the other side of the board to Lanyssa? My point is Crusaders Call is not made obsolete by the Existence of Lanyssa, not in the slightest I don't think that you need to charge two units of Stormblade Infantry since there is only one Rhupert Carvolo. And, only need for increase the charge range of one more unit is really a reason to take a warcaster? Discard the other advantages to take a warcaster? There are only a few warjacks and warbeasts that have Stealth, and the most of them are really fragile. Sloan, or one or two GMCA would be a solution for Stealth issue. After removing Stealth you can shoot them to death instead as well, without charge. Else with the accuracy buff they can simply dismantle the Slayer chassis solely by their Assault ranged attacks. If about 5 of them are reliably charge the enemy with +2 movement, then it is no wonder that they can make the ranged attack when they make Assault, isn't? I do think that Crusader's Call is a good spell. But, it is too pity if it is the only benefit for a warcaster. We need to have something more, and for our fragile melee options the defensive buff is a mandatory choice to ever think about to use them. And Blaize has nothing. Don't say 'but her feat increases ARM', for in the same time Stryker1 just give them a flat +5 ARM for one turn, and Haley3 gives them +2 DEF all the times. Also Blaize needs our precious but fragile soldiers to be killed by the enemy, but despite the nature of melee combatant that expect for some losses while delivering, they are not so cheap to be throw away like this. Look, I don't know what to tell you. Have you played it, Droopy? I have. And I won't sit here and tell you it's OP, super powerful, please put it in your major con pairing. But it's far, far, far from bad. It's one of those lists that's easy to run, has loads of hard hitting infantry, and is reasonably difficult to deal with. Why two units of Stormblades? Because they threat far? Because their mini-feat can be combined with her feat? Because they threat the 33" line in melee top of two? All of that is good. You get, like, 24 High POW Urani that basically won't let you leave your deployment zone. Stormblades run to the 22" top of 1 then threat 11" more. Or threat their deployment zone with guns. Whatever. And don't dismiss that extra 2". It's a big deal. She can feat top of 1 (don't do this) or feat on 2 and her whole army becomes very difficult to remove. What else does she bring? How's a 15/17 stat line with one of the best jacks in faction that also has Shield Guard? How about Crusader's Call which affects her entire army, not just warriors like it did in MKii? How about upkeep removal? How about a MAT9, Blessed Weapon-master? Again, I'm not saying these things are the end-all be-all but they're not bad. Connie isn't terrible, she's not the worst caster in two factions. I think she's prolly better than a handful of casters in Cygnar (Stryker3, Caine2, Nemo2, Sturgis) and is somewhere in the middle of the pack when considering Storm Division.
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