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Post by Wibble on Jun 29, 2017 22:56:35 GMT
I own abd play two vessels. I post results here, or CID, win or lose. You cant say the same. Call me a fanboi if you like, just as many call me a PP hater. I have lists, games, and results. And objectivity. What? how did you ignore everything I said and come out with this... not everyone will have 2 engines.. someone even says it's expensive above. You need to think a bit outside your own world/box. You have anecdotal results from your own games and both our opinions are subjective... the majority of CID reports were single engine games... so they were balanced around that dynamic not multiple copies and explain to me why needing to use two engines for them to be effective makes them strong?!
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jun 29, 2017 23:01:36 GMT
Errants are better than people give credit for in this place, and plonking them pissing distance from the zones on deployment, with a turn 2 charge range from some of our best infantry right behind them (I speak, of course, of KE's) is excellent. Even cinerators, should you decide to use them, get places with just a couple more inches. Blessed warjacks, OTOH, make this a perfect theme to run a warjack heavy list if you want, you know, literally any infantry to screen them at all. The points come out close enough that, IMO, your choice with a BG-heavy list is between reposition to keep the support safe or a screen to keep the warjacks safe. Blessed ruins a lot of defensive abilities and makes gunlines in particular quite vicious if you can get line of sight. Hmmmm....I wonder if there are any old, cranky men out there with...idk, some sort of vision...that might help. And yes, vessel sucks for actually being balanced. Maybe. Or not? Look, hate it if you must, but the only reason I don't have one by now is that I hate having to pay for, build, paint, transport, and generally own a huge base model. It can heal Warjacks and Warcasters and feeds very well into box spam attrition because of that. It can grant out of activation attacks to our high MAT weaponmasters. It clears out infantry about as well as a sunburst so we can direct our weaponmasters at the heavier targets. We have much worse things to whine about, and we can bring vessel up again in the exemplar CID if necessary. The issue with the VoJ is its balanced in terms of its output (just about) but has a massive drawback of damaging itself... you can't ignore that it's equality costs it more than the rest of the engines... and extra points in mechaniks or buying two engines which I feel isn't your chosen plan. Hence why I believe it's output should've been better than a junior storm strider to balance it's drawbacks... everyone just seems to ignore this drawback.... as if it doesn't exist I still have issues with the exemplar interdiction list actually being a more viable jack list - sure it works by why even call it exemplar interdiction.... I'm sure most people wanted a good infantry list with implicit infantry benefits - blessed is just completely random - anyway that has been done to death on another thread. I DID say it only had anything to do with exemplar because it said so. I'd VASTLY prefer something that makes my opponents want to flip the table, like saying errants can self-sac to any exemplar or giving an entire unit of something righteous vengeance or whatever. I'm just disagreeing with asserions that what we have, blessed warjacks, is actually weak. It's just.....not helping the theme.
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Post by paradox on Jun 29, 2017 23:21:14 GMT
I own abd play two vessels. I post results here, or CID, win or lose. You cant say the same. Call me a fanboi if you like, just as many call me a PP hater. I have lists, games, and results. And objectivity. What? how did you ignore everything I said and come out with this... not everyone will have 2 engines.. someone even says it's expensive above. You need to think a bit outside your own world/box. You have anecdotal results from your own games and both our opinions are subjective... the majority of CID reports were single engine games... so they were balanced around that dynamic not multiple copies and explain to me why needing to use two engines for them to be effective makes them strong?! Keep armchairing there, champ.
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Post by Wibble on Jun 29, 2017 23:21:50 GMT
Yeah the theme does seem confused in what it favours... infantry free points/2inch deploy and then Jack Buffs. Tis a mystery
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jun 29, 2017 23:24:22 GMT
I own abd play two vessels. I post results here, or CID, win or lose. You cant say the same. Call me a fanboi if you like, just as many call me a PP hater. I have lists, games, and results. And objectivity. and explain to me why needing to use two engines for them to be effective makes them strong?! As far as I can tell, you were the one making claims that two battle engines were "needed." Paradox posted his lists, and they had 2 BE, but he has not made the claim that they are not strong when only taking one. Quite simply, you seem to be having difficulty framing your argument. You keep hopping around from one perceived fault to another, and ignore counter-points that are raised. No, the VoJ is not as strong of a gun-platform as the AFG, or TPE, or Storm Strider (which needs a non-nazi acronym, for consistency). It was never intended to be. PP said, at the very beginning of the CID when outlining what their goals were, that the VoJ was to be a hybrid between gun-platform and support. It is. But the downside of being a hybrid (as seen with Retribution Jacks, for example), is that the cost of flexibility is being less-powerful in each class than models that only fit in that one class. I am happy to have a model that can provide decent support (heal jacks, blaze-of-glory weaponmasters, or partial purify) while still having a good, boostable gun. But I can understand it not being your cup of tea. The wonderful thing is, you don't have to use it. Save your $60, and get something that you feel will perform better.
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Post by Wibble on Jun 29, 2017 23:25:13 GMT
What? how did you ignore everything I said and come out with this... not everyone will have 2 engines.. someone even says it's expensive above. You need to think a bit outside your own world/box. You have anecdotal results from your own games and both our opinions are subjective... the majority of CID reports were single engine games... so they were balanced around that dynamic not multiple copies and explain to me why needing to use two engines for them to be effective makes them strong?! Keep armchairing there, champ. Willing to answer/acknowledge what I'm saying or just keep blowing hot air and evading? I agree though, no-one is going to be missing out if you don't answer...
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Post by Wibble on Jun 29, 2017 23:32:08 GMT
and explain to me why needing to use two engines for them to be effective makes them strong?! As far as I can tell, you were the one making claims that two battle engines were "needed." Paradox posted his lists, and they had 2 BE, but he has not made the claim that they are not strong when only taking one. Quite simply, you seem to be having difficulty framing your argument. You keep hopping around from one perceived fault to another, and ignore counter-points that are raised. No, the VoJ is not as strong of a gun-platform as the AFG, or TPE, or Storm Strider (which needs a non-nazi acronym, for consistency). It was never intended to be. PP said, at the very beginning of the CID when outlining what their goals were, that the VoJ was to be a hybrid between gun-platform and support. It is. But the downside of being a hybrid (as seen with Retribution Jacks, for example), is that the cost of flexibility is being less-powerful in each class than models that only fit in that one class. I am happy to have a model that can provide decent support (heal jacks, blaze-of-glory weaponmasters, or partial purify) while still having a good, boostable gun. But I can understand it not being your cup of tea. The wonderful thing is, you don't have to use it. Save your $60, and get something that you feel will perform better. Others implied that the healing mechanic worked well with two engines as a defence for the strength of the healing mechanism,, not myself. Feel free to ignore the drawback as well and keep talking about balance/hybrid stuff. The other engines don't have similar drawbacks or the requirement of mechaniks/extra points investments it's counteract it's downside. There's a difference between ignoring counterpoints and not agreeing with them... in order to disagree I have to acknowledge them and respond with why I don't think they makes sense. Paradox is just started moving to internet bullshit chat...
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Post by chillychinaman on Jun 29, 2017 23:36:17 GMT
I have to agree that the VoJ trying to be a support piece AND a gun platform resulted in it just being a watered down version of both. Added on top of that the need to self-harm for to compete with what many of the other BE's get for either aiming or moving just leaves a bad taste in my mouth, especially after the KE being such a let down thematically.
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Post by paradox on Jun 29, 2017 23:37:17 GMT
Keep armchairing there, champ. Willing to answer/acknowledge what I'm saying or just keep blowing hot air and evading? I agree though, no-one is going to be missing out if you don't answer... All your salty tears amount to is "it doesnt work exactly how I want, so it must suck," with a healthy dash of grass is greener tossed in. But you already said your ignoring anything with two vessels, so....
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Post by Wibble on Jun 29, 2017 23:54:45 GMT
Willing to answer/acknowledge what I'm saying or just keep blowing hot air and evading? I agree though, no-one is going to be missing out if you don't answer... All your salty tears amount to is "it doesnt work exactly how I want, so it must suck," with a healthy dash of grass is greener tossed in. But you already said your ignoring anything with two vessels, so.... You can just re-read my quote in your quote as nothing has changed.
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Post by Cryptix on Jun 30, 2017 0:08:15 GMT
Girls, girls, you're both beautiful so stop having a slapfight and get on topic.
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Post by Wibble on Jun 30, 2017 0:16:15 GMT
Girls, girls, you're both beautiful so stop having a slapfight and get on topic. The engine is balanced on output with the other engines... The balancing however ignores the fact that we have to damage the engine to make it work as well as other engines. Therefore you either just make it an easy target by using it's abilities or invest in further points to protect/repair it. Therfore I think it is overcosted for what it brings, especially post-nerf. Simples.
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Post by Wibble on Jun 30, 2017 0:19:57 GMT
I dream of a sweet heals VoJ list in the future... either harby/solo based or bastion/exemplar theme... though don't think bastions are tough enough at present to make this dream a reality due to the "kill them dead ethos" of the meta and the 5 hit boxes
Sad times
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jun 30, 2017 0:46:03 GMT
As far as I can tell, you were the one making claims that two battle engines were "needed." Paradox posted his lists, and they had 2 BE, but he has not made the claim that they are not strong when only taking one. Quite simply, you seem to be having difficulty framing your argument. You keep hopping around from one perceived fault to another, and ignore counter-points that are raised. No, the VoJ is not as strong of a gun-platform as the AFG, or TPE, or Storm Strider (which needs a non-nazi acronym, for consistency). It was never intended to be. PP said, at the very beginning of the CID when outlining what their goals were, that the VoJ was to be a hybrid between gun-platform and support. It is. But the downside of being a hybrid (as seen with Retribution Jacks, for example), is that the cost of flexibility is being less-powerful in each class than models that only fit in that one class. I am happy to have a model that can provide decent support (heal jacks, blaze-of-glory weaponmasters, or partial purify) while still having a good, boostable gun. But I can understand it not being your cup of tea. The wonderful thing is, you don't have to use it. Save your $60, and get something that you feel will perform better. Others implied that the healing mechanic worked well with two engines as a defence for the strength of the healing mechanism,, not myself. Feel free to ignore the drawback as well and keep talking about balance/hybrid stuff. The other engines don't have similar drawbacks or the requirement of mechaniks/extra points investments it's counteract it's downside. There's a difference between ignoring counterpoints and not agreeing with them... in order to disagree I have to acknowledge them and respond with why I don't think they makes sense. Paradox is just started moving to internet bullshit chat... Ok, to be very specific, Cyel mentioned the healing aura because it fixes jacks, and with two VoJ it not only heals double, but is also basically "free" since they heal each other (paraphrasing, but got as close as I could). That was the first mention in this thread of using two VoJ post-CID. It also was not saying using two VoJ was necessary, or the only way to make it good, as you seem be of the opinion. Rather, (at least how I read it), using a VoJ to heal a VoJ is viewed as a bonus, where-as the primary benefit is repairing jacks. Our jacks are better than many/most at taking a hit (hell, it's basically Tristan2's entire battle-plan for me), and so anything that can heal them is good. As for the drawback of damage, I'm not ignoring it. The drawback is slight (1 damage per boost, 1d3 damage per miracle/extra shot, and easily and cheaply countered in our faction), and the other battle engines also have drawbacks. (For example, the AFG, the one I'm most familiar with due to also playing Ret, still drops significantly in usefulness if it doesn't aim, and is basically screwed if jammed). But again, if you don't like it, don't take it. Complaining will have absolutely no effect, the model won't change, and I'm quite certain it's not even making you feel any better.
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Post by paradox on Jun 30, 2017 1:15:04 GMT
Girls, girls, you're both beautiful so stop having a slapfight and get on topic. Know what else is beautiful? A double vessel list.
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