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Post by sand20go on Jul 3, 2017 19:42:38 GMT
Sorry to continue one of the digessions:
My own take is that cygnar is in a flawed design-BUSINESS MODEL space. If you read the fluff and the original concept it was that Cygnar was supposed to be the most technologically advanced entity (and because of their internal policies the most friendly to the widest variety of mercenaries/minions). The balance (fluff) for higher tech was greater cost. Essentially a smaller number of models with higher power.
The problem with this is that it sells fewer models (fewer models fitting into 50 or 75 points); that people want models in a similar "space" to cost the same MSRP; and that people will compare models point cost to the similarly priced equivelent when making buying decisions.
Thus the dumbness of Uhlans and Stormlances both being 12/20 (and both with the same MSPR)
PP has, in many ways, been playing wack a mole for a long time on this issue - dealing with models that are CLEARLY better than their parallel equivalent (Stormwall vs. Conquest). Junior priced the same as the other faction's juniors. No easy answer and a ton of Salt generated all over.
Interestingly - the SQUIRE is one of the few models which DOES get this right. Great piece. Gravediggers will miss it. You could, in fact, argue that it would be properly priced at 5.5 or even 6 points.....and that tweek would make its inclusion in Gravediggers make sense.
(BTW - for a shooting faction Gravediggers is FINE without the squire. I expect to see a TON of Blockhouses and lots of shooting with tough trenchers to block the approach. Will make for an "interesting" game ;-)
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Post by Aegis on Jul 3, 2017 20:41:55 GMT
You say that should be priced 6, but Sylis isn't that much behind Squire and is costed 4.
When themes weren't a thing and you still had the option to take mercenaries, I often taked Sylis instead of Squire, sometimes because it was better with the caster (1 extra focus every turn vs 3 turns and Arcane Secret for spell-slinging), sometimes since it was the first "degrade" I would almost effort-lessly do when I needed an extra point.
On the "cost of power", confronting Uhlans and Lances is a bit off... Ulhans (and most cavalry in general) are pretty Meh, while Stormlances were clearly OP. Confronting two problematic models (one too weak and one too strong) doesn't seem a good way to make a general point.
Confront Stormblades and Ironfang Pikemans, and than you have a better comparison of the "cost of technological superiority".
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jul 3, 2017 20:43:02 GMT
Sorry to continue one of the digessions: My own take is that cygnar is in a flawed design-BUSINESS MODEL space. If you read the fluff and the original concept it was that Cygnar was supposed to be the most technologically advanced entity (and because of their internal policies the most friendly to the widest variety of mercenaries/minions). The balance (fluff) for higher tech was greater cost. Essentially a smaller number of models with higher power. The problem with this is that it sells fewer models (fewer models fitting into 50 or 75 points); that people want models in a similar "space" to cost the same MSRP; and that people will compare models point cost to the similarly priced equivelent when making buying decisions. Thus the dumbness of Uhlans and Stormlances both being 12/20 (and both with the same MSPR) PP has, in many ways, been playing wack a mole for a long time on this issue - dealing with models that are CLEARLY better than their parallel equivalent (Stormwall vs. Conquest). Junior priced the same as the other faction's juniors. No easy answer and a ton of Salt generated all over. Interestingly - the SQUIRE is one of the few models which DOES get this right. Great piece. Gravediggers will miss it. You could, in fact, argue that it would be properly priced at 5.5 or even 6 points.....and that tweek would make its inclusion in Gravediggers make sense. (BTW - for a shooting faction Gravediggers is FINE without the squire. I expect to see a TON of Blockhouses and lots of shooting with tough trenchers to block the approach. Will make for an "interesting" game ;-) Actually, most things in Cygnar are costed as their performance. Apart Storm Lances, they are not simply better for their points. In fluff we are supposed by the elite few faction, but in the real games we don't have such units except for Storm Lances.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 3, 2017 21:05:57 GMT
Sorry to continue one of the digessions: My own take is that cygnar is in a flawed design-BUSINESS MODEL space. If you read the fluff and the original concept it was that Cygnar was supposed to be the most technologically advanced entity (and because of their internal policies the most friendly to the widest variety of mercenaries/minions). The balance (fluff) for higher tech was greater cost. Essentially a smaller number of models with higher power. The problem with this is that it sells fewer models (fewer models fitting into 50 or 75 points); that people want models in a similar "space" to cost the same MSRP; and that people will compare models point cost to the similarly priced equivelent when making buying decisions. Thus the dumbness of Uhlans and Stormlances both being 12/20 (and both with the same MSPR) PP has, in many ways, been playing wack a mole for a long time on this issue - dealing with models that are CLEARLY better than their parallel equivalent (Stormwall vs. Conquest). Junior priced the same as the other faction's juniors. No easy answer and a ton of Salt generated all over. Interestingly - the SQUIRE is one of the few models which DOES get this right. Great piece. Gravediggers will miss it. You could, in fact, argue that it would be properly priced at 5.5 or even 6 points.....and that tweek would make its inclusion in Gravediggers make sense. (BTW - for a shooting faction Gravediggers is FINE without the squire. I expect to see a TON of Blockhouses and lots of shooting with tough trenchers to block the approach. Will make for an "interesting" game ;-) Yeah, the fact that pp needs to deal with options that are clearly better must be taxing. I mean the conquest has a longer range gun, +3 Pow on its fists, +1 armour and more boxes. Must be hard to keep the Stormwall competitive.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 3, 2017 23:25:18 GMT
Sorry to continue one of the digessions: My own take is that cygnar is in a flawed design-BUSINESS MODEL space. If you read the fluff and the original concept it was that Cygnar was supposed to be the most technologically advanced entity (and because of their internal policies the most friendly to the widest variety of mercenaries/minions). The balance (fluff) for higher tech was greater cost. Essentially a smaller number of models with higher power. The problem with this is that it sells fewer models (fewer models fitting into 50 or 75 points); that people want models in a similar "space" to cost the same MSRP; and that people will compare models point cost to the similarly priced equivelent when making buying decisions. Thus the dumbness of Uhlans and Stormlances both being 12/20 (and both with the same MSPR) PP has, in many ways, been playing wack a mole for a long time on this issue - dealing with models that are CLEARLY better than their parallel equivalent (Stormwall vs. Conquest). Junior priced the same as the other faction's juniors. No easy answer and a ton of Salt generated all over. Interestingly - the SQUIRE is one of the few models which DOES get this right. Great piece. Gravediggers will miss it. You could, in fact, argue that it would be properly priced at 5.5 or even 6 points.....and that tweek would make its inclusion in Gravediggers make sense. (BTW - for a shooting faction Gravediggers is FINE without the squire. I expect to see a TON of Blockhouses and lots of shooting with tough trenchers to block the approach. Will make for an "interesting" game ;-) Yeah, the fact that pp needs to deal with options that are clearly better must be taxing. I mean the conquest has a longer range gun, +3 Pow on its fists, +1 armour and more boxes. Must be hard to keep the Stormwall competitive. LOL TWO BIG guns vs. ONE (ah yes, that 1 inch matters SO much) and disruption and stealth solo killing on a stick. The question is whether at 39 vs. 37 it is rightly costed (ditto huricanne vs. Conquest/Victor). I would say a point too low. Probably 40. Or lets compare the ATR vs. Marksman. Same Range. Same Pow. You get an Extra FA and then the 3 abilities (one which mirros the Marksman) plus Arcane Precision....AND Repo. DO you really want to argue that those 2 models should both cost 4? We could go on. Your mechanics 3/5. Ditto mine. You get Iron Sentinal (I lost it) and you repair D6 vs. D3. Really?
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 4, 2017 1:28:45 GMT
Yeah, the fact that pp needs to deal with options that are clearly better must be taxing. I mean the conquest has a longer range gun, +3 Pow on its fists, +1 armour and more boxes. Must be hard to keep the Stormwall competitive. LOL TWO BIG guns vs. ONE (ah yes, that 1 inch matters SO much) and disruption and stealth solo killing on a stick. The question is whether at 39 vs. 37 it is rightly costed (ditto huricanne vs. Conquest/Victor). I would say a point too low. Probably 40. Or lets compare the ATR vs. Marksman. Same Range. Same Pow. You get an Extra FA and then the 3 abilities (one which mirros the Marksman) plus Arcane Precision....AND Repo. DO you really want to argue that those 2 models should both cost 4? We could go on. Your mechanics 3/5. Ditto mine. You get Iron Sentinal (I lost it) and you repair D6 vs. D3. Really? Oh Sand, its so funny when you are clearly looking through the cards LOOKING for problems to get mad at. I mean, you did notice that D6 repair and Iron Sentinel are on the leader only, right? Meanwhile the Gobbers are Arm 9 You miss that the Arcane Tempest Rifleman is 1 less power, doesn't have Stealth, doesn't grant any abilities and isn't in freaking Jaws of the wolf
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Post by sand20go on Jul 4, 2017 2:06:47 GMT
You have to bring widows to gain the ability. While WMM synergizes with Butcher 1 generally you will be better off taking your three points of autodamage (both have that). Meanwhile if yoiu aim you destealth. I would flat out trade WMM for the ATR.
Again, while the gobbers are ARM 9 does that EVER matter? Mech's die easily. Whether by a point over or 4 they are still dead. You have more repair ability per 3/5 points than the mechanics.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 4, 2017 2:27:38 GMT
You have to bring widows to gain the ability. While WMM synergizes with Butcher 1 generally you will be better off taking your three points of autodamage (both have that). Meanwhile if yoiu aim you destealth. I would flat out trade WMM for the ATR. Again, while the gobbers are ARM 9 does that EVER matter? Mech's die easily. Whether by a point over or 4 they are still dead. You have more repair ability per 3/5 points than the mechanics. Arm 12 is way less likely to die to blast. Your mechs have better combat abilities. Your 12 point juggernaut has more boxes and arm than our 12 point ironclad. There are trade offs, and cross faction comparisons break down. WMM has higher base pow on the gun, stealth does matter because then the WMM out threats an aiming ATR with snipe.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 4, 2017 2:41:26 GMT
You have to bring widows to gain the ability. While WMM synergizes with Butcher 1 generally you will be better off taking your three points of autodamage (both have that). Meanwhile if yoiu aim you destealth. I would flat out trade WMM for the ATR. Again, while the gobbers are ARM 9 does that EVER matter? Mech's die easily. Whether by a point over or 4 they are still dead. You have more repair ability per 3/5 points than the mechanics. Pow 6 blast damage such as, say, a winter guard Rocket. Feel free to Trade the Marksman for the Gun Gunner, but make sure to put him in a shitty theme force.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jul 4, 2017 7:52:55 GMT
You have to bring widows to gain the ability. While WMM synergizes with Butcher 1 generally you will be better off taking your three points of autodamage (both have that). Meanwhile if yoiu aim you destealth. I would flat out trade WMM for the ATR. Again, while the gobbers are ARM 9 does that EVER matter? Mech's die easily. Whether by a point over or 4 they are still dead. You have more repair ability per 3/5 points than the mechanics. Yeah I agreed that Cygnar is better at repairing than Khador, but that's because we have Gobber Tinker and Arlan Strangewayes, not because raw Repair stat of Field Mechanik officer is good. I don't think that we use Field Mechanik often in the first place. Field Mechaniks doesn't have a friendly Faction unit with 8 damage per each troopers that also have Repairable and allow them to do something even if they are not able to be spread out(it is really important because the most benefit of Repair is repair crippled system, and we can't expect everything is fully repaired), nor they can have a CA that gives them CMD 8 and allow them to take care for more than one warjack in a same turn either(the overall cost is quite expensive, though). Both of us don't share the same situation so just compare both of them without think about the around of them is actually not fair at all. You may think that Battle Mechaniks are not so good, of course, then actually it is a sour grape. But be aware that Field Mechanik is also a sour grape as well. And, in fact it is Retribution and Legion that have the better units than the others, but they have the right to do so because they lacks much supports for them or they don't have the compatitiveness within their factions. The raw stats and abilities on their own are important, but it is not the only factor. You may envy something on the other factions, as I do, but you can't get it because they are not intended to be included in your factions. It is, just a sour grape.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 4, 2017 14:57:59 GMT
It isn't sour grapes. It is an observation that there is a challenge in figuring out how to integrate "the high tech faction" and "we need to sell models". _IF_ they were true to the first we would see low model count Cygnar forces (and occasionally we do. ....I love Juris's seven model count Haley Army that leverages high tech/high syngy to the max). But again, that runs into the challenge that selling 7 models is not going to win the day in keeping the business open. Thus the wack a mole - the Rifle guy will be better than the Marksman....but we will limit his use to a less than ideal theme or "the squire is a great support model....but we will keep it out of trenchers". In an ideal world (aka where PP doesn't need to make money) those compromises wouldn't be in play - with Cyngar being characterized by higher tech than others but higher model costing to likely reduce "average" model count by 20-25%.
Usually PP gets the wack a mole right. Sometimes (MK2 Haley 2 and Stormwall and pre nerf Stormlances they don't).
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Post by Cryptix on Jul 6, 2017 16:50:44 GMT
Course, if we were being true to the lore only magicians with repair would be able to repair cortex boxes on jacks, but that's not the point of this thread.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 6, 2017 17:19:32 GMT
Course, if we were being true to the lore only magicians with repair would be able to repair cortex boxes on jacks, but that's not the point of this thread. Technically, shouldn't a Jack with a totally broken Cortex just stop working? Maybe it isn't the cortex itself that gets hurt, but the connections between it an the mechanical systems?
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Post by Cryptix on Jul 6, 2017 18:27:43 GMT
I was talking about the fact that even if they could bodge the damage, only arcane mechaniks (IE, gifted) have the physical ability to fix them and the runes inscribed in cortices.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jul 7, 2017 3:26:57 GMT
I was talking about the fact that even if they could bodge the damage, only arcane mechaniks (IE, gifted) have the physical ability to fix them and the runes inscribed in cortices. Cortex is heaviley guarded and usually crippled cortex in games means that the warjack's damage affects the effectiveness of the cortex by severed link between the cortex and the chassis or damaged sensors, rather than the blow actually damages to the cortex. If a cortex needs an arcane mechanik in order to be repaired, it is already not able to attempt field repair, and I suspect that the warjack was already wreaked in the game and all you can is recover the cortex and scraps.
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