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Post by bluebarren on Jun 23, 2017 14:18:57 GMT
Its not a complaint (not from me at least, I can't speak for everyone) as much as an observation about one of the shortcomings of the theme list. And its definitely not impossible to run jacks without +5 focus (not important, but I'm curious where you got 5 from), i even said earlier just having a unit and the trencher jr was enough for me to feel like kraye can be run his bg relatvively smoothly. The biggest thing i missed was a larger control area, but it wasn't a huge deal either way.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 23, 2017 14:35:43 GMT
The Trencher Guy Provides 4 Focus. So for the squire to be vital to the running from a focus perspective, then at least 1 additional focus would be necacary.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 23, 2017 14:46:01 GMT
I think an important thing to note in the discussion between Squire & Arlan vs Juniors in providing focus, is that some Casters want pretty much all the jacks in the army on themselves (Kraye, Caine 3, Siege, and to some extent Caine 1 and Jakes), the Squire & Arlan support this, Juniors do not. Also the Juniors jack cannot come out of the pool of warjack points. which in a theme like Gravediggers means they are competing directly for space with the units that get you free points.
not saying that the trencher Junior does not have a place in some lists, but it is worth remembering that that role is further narrowed by casters that want all the jacks in their battlegroup
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Post by jisidro on Jun 23, 2017 14:46:24 GMT
Cygnar has had the dubious advantage of getting 2 great themes early that now warp every other theme that comes along. SoT is a normal theme that would get by with no squire and a BG restriction but for the fact that it sits alongside Storm Division and Heavy Metal who have Squire, Journeyman(s), Arlan along with the thematic stuff. It's really hard to now justify Gravediggers lack of Squire/Journeyman unless you look at the other factions and their themes. I don't often agree with what you write, but I think you correct with this assessment I disagree!
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jun 23, 2017 14:46:30 GMT
Well to be fair, everyone has their own support system thats strong; choir, soul collection, arcanists, etc. And the squire is built into our faction and limits our access to casters with more than 6 focus (we've got nemos and haleys). Thats pretty much massive bull. You have 3 Journeymans, providing some of the most focus support in the entire game, and you have 2 Focus 8 Casters. It's rubbish to say that your faction is "Balanced" by the Squire. It's not like your casters are that Weak or "Bad". You have a solid amount of focus 7 casters already. Seriously, you better acknowledge that the grape that seems delicious is actually a sour grape. Each factions never get the same thing, ever. That's why some options are seems good, but you can't get it at all. Do you really think that Cygnar will get Houseguard Halberdiers or Dawnguard Sentinels? Else Man-o-War Shocktroopers? No, they must not because these units are surely broken when a faction with absolute ranged power are also have the most durable units in the game. Cygnar is the faction that even love for Cinerators on MKII(yes, they are good now but not in that time) where Storm Lances are not that considered as good. Think about what would happen if every single Houseguard Halberdiers, Dawnguard Sentinels and Man-o-War Shocktroopers are having Arcane Shield as the default equipment. If a Cygnar gamer really thinks that 'Legions should spamming more Blighted Nyss Swordsmen because they are simply better than Stormblade Infantry' then it is very wrong, because they are not so better than Legion's other options(I don't know about them well but it is correct at least in MKII). In Cygnar they will enjoy Arcane Shield's blast protections, Rhupert Carvolo's Tough, and with good DEF they will be an excellent jammer, but that's why they are never on Cygnar, and they are only in Legion where beasts are sooo good and the usefulness of the units are always to be doubted. Not to mention about Ironclads, Centurions and Hunters with Passage and/or Enrage. I wonder that how the opponent feel if my Hunters are cracking the enemy jack but it is protected by Passage so the opponent can't even scratch them, or P+S 19 Stormclads will dismantles anything with the combination of Enrage and pseudo-Abuse while still having ARM 19+3 thanks to Arcane Shield. It seems that you are think that such ridiculous think is happen, but actually it isn't, and they never would. We do have some ridiculous thing, but only some of them are actually ridiculous. That's why we don't have the same tools, and every tools have the diffrent value on each factions. I, and many others do think that some options in some specific factions are broken, such as Storm Lances, Major Victoria Haley, etc. Even in MKII Haley2 was always a hot potato, and Storm Lances are on the same line since release of the new edition. But simply argue with every single things on Cygnar is totally diffrent with argue about the broken stuffs that makes the game bad. Just, think about the other faction's viewpoint when they are not using something.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 23, 2017 15:18:55 GMT
Seriously, you better acknowledge that the grape that seems delicious is actually a sour grape. Each factions never get the same thing, ever. That's why some options are seems good, but you can't get it at all. Thats my bother. That Cygnar (Or at least the Cygnar Players I have witnessed) often want it all. I'm not sour so much as astounded. Cygnar just got a massive amount of stuff and a VERY weak nerf (More like a sidestep then a nerf), and the response is "Meh, not a S+ Ranked thing. Not gonna bother". Im fine with Cygnar. I really hate its fluff more than its mechanics. If this trend continues (Of people not buying any of their other stuff because stormlanced+Junior) then PP will just pretty much nerf the S+ Options.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jun 23, 2017 16:01:53 GMT
Seriously, you better acknowledge that the grape that seems delicious is actually a sour grape. Each factions never get the same thing, ever. That's why some options are seems good, but you can't get it at all. Thats my bother. That Cygnar (Or at least the Cygnar Players I have witnessed) often want it all. I'm not sour so much as astounded. Cygnar just got a massive amount of stuff and a VERY weak nerf (More like a sidestep then a nerf), and the response is "Meh, not a S+ Ranked thing. Not gonna bother". Im fine with Cygnar. I really hate its fluff more than its mechanics. If this trend continues (Of people not buying any of their other stuff because stormlanced+Junior) then PP will just pretty much nerf the S+ Options. If it is only your bother then I have nothing to do with this, but what you doing is simply argue with every single Cygnar stuffs and bothers us all, nothing more. That's why I say you to stop this, because it is my bother as well for you made it. Did we said that 'buffing Storm Lances is required' or 'Haley2 is still too weak' at least once? Actually we says otherwise. I remember that many Cygnar gamers include me are argue about the broken effectiveness of Storm Lances before PP forum was blown off. Why we have to be bothered by every single stuff we discuss, while the most of them are have the enough reason to do? Even for a broken faction, not everything is broken because only some broken part can make a broken faction. If you are really hate what PP made, then argue about PP as I do. But I don't think that the hatred should toward the others, isn't? Even for a viewpoint of a former hater, I can't understand your action at all. Even in MKII when I am really hate toward the damned Mage Hunter Strike Force(man, I never call them without a scorn at MKII version of them after having some skirmish with them, really), but the hatred doesn't extended to the whole Retribution. I knew their weakness as well, as well as the hatred toward the damned MHSFs because I was study for them and their faction to find the way to win. And I never hate my friend that utilizing the damned Mage Hunter Strike Force and the damned Mage Hunter Strike Force Commander at all, for he is one of my good friend. I knew that my hatread did make some people frown, though. So, just stop this. We can't solve your problem, so you better need to find the another place to solve this. I don't think that PP will give us enough chance to do, at least for now, though.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 23, 2017 16:11:12 GMT
If it is only your bother then I have nothing to do with this, but what you doing is simply argue with every single Cygnar stuffs and bothers us all, nothing more. That's why I say you to stop this, because it is my bother as well for you made it. I'm sorry, and I mean no offense but I have some difficulty understanding your grammar. I'm active on every Board. I did notice people talking about how Stormlances were ridiculous in the PP forum but I also saw that "No it's all our infantry is bad and should be brought up to the Stormlance Level" as well as "Haley2 is fine, because Kharchev is a good counter to her. Also, Please Nerf Kharchev". I'm not really offended or anything nor do I hate PP (I hated them in MKII). Just arguing over stuff I suppose.
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Post by danfromchicago on Jun 23, 2017 16:28:36 GMT
Yes, the squire is an excellent piece.
Yes, there are casters which you would rather run in Storm Division or Heavy Metal.
No, that's not every caster on the list.
People jump to such freaking fast conclusions. Play the dang list for a while. You'll figure out what works well with it.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jun 23, 2017 16:46:15 GMT
If it is only your bother then I have nothing to do with this, but what you doing is simply argue with every single Cygnar stuffs and bothers us all, nothing more. That's why I say you to stop this, because it is my bother as well for you made it. I'm sorry, and I mean no offense but I have some difficulty understanding your grammar. I'm active on every Board. I did notice people talking about how Stormlances were ridiculous in the PP forum but I also saw that "No it's all our infantry is bad and should be brought up to the Stormlance Level" as well as "Haley2 is fine, because Kharchev is a good counter to her. Also, Please Nerf Kharchev". I'm not really offended or anything nor do I hate PP (I hated them in MKII). Just arguing over stuff I suppose. Sorry for you because my grammar is actually poor. English is not my native language. And, sorry if you have no offense. It seems that what you saw and what I saw are diffrent. For me, although I have two units of Storm Lances, I am also saw many voices to argue about them(and it is too easy to heard), include some Cygnar gamers include me. Haley2 is always a node of hatred... For the hatred toward Storm Lances, I think that it is natural because they are actually overpowered. I remember that everyone except for Cygnar hates them, and even in Cygnar they are mocking the faction as well, so some Cygnar gamers include me are not like them either. As a Cygnar gamer, I knew that we can play the game even if they are removed from the game even before the CID, but they are too powerful option to be discarded. And as you know, they become the best unit in the game since mid 2016, making Cygnar a Storm Lances faction. For Cygnar, they are bad because they are simply too good; they can do everything except for simply dying out, better than every other units we have, and too good for their points. They are making people fool if he didn't take them despite they are not the fundamental support piece of the faction like Choir of Menoth or Paingiver Beast Handlers. For the other factions, the very presence of them makes them angry because they simply does better than their counterparts and they works too good per their points all the time. And everyone is annoying to see Storm Lances on Cygnar list all the times. We do play them less than two maximum units, but you will see that it is hard to not play them at all unless you don't have them. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyway, back to the Squire, I don't think that our various FOC 6 casters are doing well without an Attachment model. As OP said we do have some warcasters that works well without it, but most of them are not so good without an Attachment, or they have no merit to discard Squire and choose Grave Digger. There are some exceptions, though, but I don't think that the most casters are likes the theme. I don't think that Gravediggers theme is almost unplayable like Sons of the Tempest because Trencher units are generally better, but I don't think that we will see the theme often.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 23, 2017 17:35:13 GMT
Anyway, back to the Squire, I don't think that our various FOC 6 casters are doing well without an Attachment model. The question is "Doing Well" or "It's just such an awesome thing why would I ever not take it?" Every caster benefits from +1 Focus at critical times as well as an expanded control range and accuracy. I'm not seeing how they are bad, or even sub-Par. They look like fine casters to me, even if they do "Only" have focus 6. Again I didn't mean to offend about the grammar. I was getting somewhat confused.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 23, 2017 18:27:38 GMT
Gravediggers is a good theme with access to lots of good models. The lack of the squire makes the choice to take it difficult. Exchanging 2" of control and a couple of focus is no joke. And no Junior for AS is a major restriction. But, I think it will prove worthwhile in many cases. -Lots of our casters will love all the protective tech: smkoke, trenches, shield guards, etc. -It's the theme we've been waiting for for Haley3, one of our best casters. -The bonuses are good. +1 to starting roll makes us go first, and who doesn't like going first? And Rise is really nice for an army full of tough guys. Yup, I think it's safe to say Cygnar has 3 really good themes, and only one stinker. I think the better conversation to have is how we can best use the gravedigger theme to overcome the sacrifices it requires. (Also, Rowdy Dragon, your faction envy is showing. )
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 23, 2017 18:58:20 GMT
(Also, Rowdy Dragon, your faction envy is showing. ) Nah keep your garbage mc faction to yourselves! Il be enjoying my superior warjacks, and great entorage if units. And neat veriety of warcasters.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jun 23, 2017 19:23:52 GMT
Actually, I like to be going second, and I don't want to be goind first because I can hit the enemy on round 1. Also I can see the opponent's deployment first as well.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 23, 2017 19:30:40 GMT
Actually, I like to be going second, and I don't want to be goind first because I can hit the enemy on round 1. Also I can see the opponent's deployment first as well. Fair enough. But the +1 is still useful to you, because you get to pick.
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