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Post by souleater on Jun 21, 2017 17:18:31 GMT
Hello.
I note that Circle have a number of abilities that place or generate forests.
To me that sounds useful for blocking LOS, charge lanes, etc.
Yet the impression I get from Circle comments is that this ability plus little to no effect on the table top.
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Post by chillychinaman on Jun 21, 2017 17:32:14 GMT
I think it's because the Alpha predators of the current meta usually have means of circumventing forests.
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Post by macdaddy on Jun 21, 2017 19:05:41 GMT
I think it's because the Alpha predators of the current meta usually have means of circumventing forests. Well that and a chunk of our forest generation is bleh. Sentry stones are great but if your opponent ignores stealth with long range medium pow boostable guns (more common than it may seem) your kind of screwed. Also long range high explosive 10 blasts with boosted damage sucks as well. (cough khador mortars with fire for effect cough) Wurmy has the best forest generation in the game and is wideley considered a upper tier caster. Him and baldur 1** both have wild growth which is a great AOE and cassius can kill cheap models to make a wall and then use dark path to escape behind the trees he made. Now onto the bleh. Wold wardens, bleh, cant move or place after making the trees not sure what this was for or attempting to prevent. Only having 3 fury to cast a cost 2 makes it worse and on a relatively wimpy arm 18 chassis so most guns make it sad. It may have a lot of boxes but those go away fast. Wold Watchers require killing a model which is incredibly hard for them to do at a pathetic mat and rat 5, 2 fury and Pow 12. The gun is fairly good but if you boost anything on the gun you are not using stone form and that forest is not being sued to protect you or screen you and is easier for your opponent to circumvent. plus its just a terrible beast I think its the worst in faction Morv 1 has very conditional forest generation. Her feat is really nice but she is typically regarded as a lower tier caster (I have never played her) Eruption of life is a cool ability and technically you could spam a bunch of pow 13's with wold wardens. Its not that her forest generation is bad, it is just reliant on us having models capable of taking advantage of the feat (or geomancing eruption) AND your opponent having models that will be feasibly killed off during her feat turn or from the odd boosted pow 13. I think there may be some play with spamming eruption from her (some people enjoy spamming earth spikes with baldur after all and it sounds like it could be good into ghost fleet) So its not necessarily that creating forest AOE's is bad, its just the way we create them are very clunky and in a lot of ways they are conditional to what our opponent has on the table.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 21, 2017 19:47:30 GMT
To add on to what macdaddy was saying, Morvahna1 isn't actually a bad caster, but she IS out of the meta. Her kit is a little clunky and could use some tuning, but her biggest issue is the lack of infantry in the meta - if we start seeing multiple units showing up again, she's quite good into that, but she has a terrible matchup into jack spam. It's actually Baldur1 that I believe has Rapid growth, not Baldur2. Baldur2 generates a rock wall, which is HIGHLY useful, especially in the double-woldwrath build I've seen being thrown about.
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Post by macdaddy on Jun 21, 2017 20:13:06 GMT
To add on to what macdaddy was saying, Morvahna1 isn't actually a bad caster, but she IS out of the meta. Her kit is a little clunky and could use some tuning, but her biggest issue is the lack of infantry in the meta - if we start seeing multiple units showing up again, she's quite good into that, but she has a terrible matchup into jack spam. It's actually Baldur1 that I believe has Rapid growth, not Baldur2. Baldur2 generates a rock wall, which is HIGHLY useful, especially in the double-woldwrath build I've seen being thrown about. You are correct I have been typing Baldur 2 a lot lately and completely spaced on what I was typing Looks like I have been playing B2 too much haha If Ghost fleet wasn't so darn good at killing our stuff at range and morvannah wasn't so vulnerable to ghost shot CRA's I would say she would be game into that but I heavily doubt her ability to attrition ghost fleet.
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Post by gordaunikus1 on Jun 21, 2017 20:19:14 GMT
I love morvahna 1 and have played her a ton in this edition. I would argue that she is LESSsusceptible to the ghost shot knockdown assassination than most casters. In fact, I built her out specifically to fight assassination gunlines using woldwrath as an anchor and restoration target. Her sac pawn ability laughs at ranged assassination and works when she is knocked down.
The problem with her over Mohsar with sands of fate or Baldur 2 with megalith is that shooting will most likely own ur gallows groves so u will only have the feat to apply rfp.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 21, 2017 20:52:55 GMT
I'm with gordaunikus. She plays just fine into ranged assassination, though her regrowth isn't a great attrition element anymore. I really think the only change she needs to be competitive is to have regrowth go to sac move OR action (and give her back Harrow while we're at it, damnit.)
Circle doesn't really need a specific ghost fleet drop, though - Wurmwood eats it just fine.
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Post by gordaunikus1 on Jun 21, 2017 23:58:21 GMT
I understand that woldwardens are too expensive and die too easily. Has anyone had success running them in front to make a huge forest wall w woldgaurdians behind to spread damage? Move up shapers on ur turn before the warden moves and repeat. This seems like a cool beginning to like a Baldur 1 the force where u can add a 3rd 4" forest and potentially sentry stones. Or add megalith as a fifth heavy to hit at 17 w the guardians.
Maybe the question is what are u protecting? Wyrds won't do enough damage. I actually like guardians pow 17 w stone skin and free longer charges from a wayfarer.
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Post by kineath on Jun 23, 2017 8:06:35 GMT
I understand that woldwardens are too expensive and die too easily. Has anyone had success running them in front to make a huge forest wall w woldgaurdians behind to spread damage? Move up shapers on ur turn before the warden moves and repeat. This seems like a cool beginning to like a Baldur 1 the force where u can add a 3rd 4" forest and potentially sentry stones. Or add megalith as a fifth heavy to hit at 17 w the guardians. Maybe the question is what are u protecting? Wyrds won't do enough damage. I actually like guardians pow 17 w stone skin and free longer charges from a wayfarer. Sounds to me like too many points just to have 2 Woldwardens moving up forests (66 points minimum) also pretty slow. 8"move a turn. The last problem I found with Wardens: they get charged and die. Also, PS 16/17, low volume of attacks and no reach2. That's not going to kill a lot.
If I'd be looking for LoS blocking I'd consider Mistriders. Clouds are removed when they die, sure. But for less then a 3rd for the cost. The clouds are faster (11") and 3/5 3" clouds cover more then 2 4" forests. Heck, even druids. just as fast with apparition, gain stealth.
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Post by macdaddy on Jun 23, 2017 14:37:54 GMT
Yeah I normally only take Wardens for Geomancy the forest wall is OK but they die like chumps because Arm 18 Def 10 is a horrible defensive stat line.
Thier cost is too high to try and use one or two as a forest screen generator and they are way to easy to deal with.
They really are just a bad Warbeasts. It frustrates me because I use them in Bones because o don't own and don't want to own 4 woldwyrds. Or on the case of my Baldur 2 list with them they are literally only there to Geomancy roots and live.
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Post by kuririnad on Jun 23, 2017 14:44:05 GMT
Devil's advocate here: aren't the much-used Crusader warjacks in protectorate 10/18 and speed 4? Is it the increased cost for the utility, the few ways we have to buff them, or their lower pow that keeps them on the shelf? Perhaps addressing these issues would make them more playable.
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Post by jisidro on Jun 23, 2017 14:52:54 GMT
Devil's advocate here: aren't the much-used Crusader warjacks in protectorate 10/18 and speed 4? Is it the increased cost for the utility, the few ways we have to buff them, or their lower pow that keeps them on the shelf? Perhaps addressing these issues would make them more playable.
It's a 10/19 Cost 10 vs a 10/18 cost 16
I think the Woldwarden is about 6pts better than the Crusader (+1 SPD, Chain Attack, Geomancy, Pathfinder, Animus, Fury system, +3 HP and regen) the problem lies with POW 18/20 on the crusader as a late game piece or as a cheap trade target you cannot ignore while the Warden is paying for a lot of stuff that won't help with a heavies main job.
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Post by claptrap on Jun 23, 2017 18:58:38 GMT
Devil's advocate here: aren't the much-used Crusader warjacks in protectorate 10/18 and speed 4? Is it the increased cost for the utility, the few ways we have to buff them, or their lower pow that keeps them on the shelf? Perhaps addressing these issues would make them more playable. Sorry, "much-used"? As a recovering Menite I can say that in my experience, outside of some spam lists, Crusaders are virtually never used. It is almost always worth the extra 4+ points to play a different heavy. It might not always be worth the extra 2 points for a Castigator if points are really tight, but you'd think very hard about it. Because SPD 4 with 1" RNG.
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Post by ispyypsi on Jun 24, 2017 12:31:28 GMT
Devil's advocate here: aren't the much-used Crusader warjacks in protectorate 10/18 and speed 4? Is it the increased cost for the utility, the few ways we have to buff them, or their lower pow that keeps them on the shelf? Perhaps addressing these issues would make them more playable. Sorry, "much-used"? As a recovering Menite I can say that in my experience, outside of some spam lists, Crusaders are virtually never used. It is almost always worth the extra 4+ points to play a different heavy. It might not always be worth the extra 2 points for a Castigator if points are really tight, but you'd think very hard about it. Because SPD 4 with 1" RNG. I hear that. Except Menoth has a lot of jack support. A lot of caster can do work for them. I used to think they same way but now I'm dropping them mostly as throw away jacks and they almost always earn back more points than they were worth. Not saying you are wrong or anything. Just done count out the crusader. Except 4 spd..that is rough.
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Post by macdaddy on Jun 24, 2017 14:16:49 GMT
Give wolds a solo that gives them +2 to attack and or damage and I would not feel bad about taking my wold Wardens.
Crusader has a heck of a lot of in faction buffs. Mobility from Amon, Boundless charge from Durst, Assail. Plus lots of damage buffs and Chior. Warden has...some cute healing and Fury management. It needs be able to remove a Heavy to be worth its points.
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