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Post by RandomThoughts on Jun 15, 2017 10:44:50 GMT
Hi! Some of you might be familiar with my intro guide in the new player section, most are not, I guess. Either way, I need your help keeping the section about New Player Model Purchase Recommendations updated. Please keep the thread itself clean, it helps nobody if new players have to wade through dozens of posts discussing what should or should not be included, but if you have something to add, please PM me. I'll collect your input and update the guide accordingly! Thank you, all of you!
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Post by Cryptix on Jun 16, 2017 2:38:38 GMT
If you like, I can clean up some off-topic posts. Just pull the trigger.
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Post by RandomThoughts on Jun 16, 2017 22:27:46 GMT
Oh, posting suggestions here is also okay, of course!
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Post by pangurban on Jun 17, 2017 0:07:00 GMT
Ret got some great stuff recently / will be getting some more great stuff soon, but probably nothing that should go high up on a new player's shopping list immediately. Ghyrrshyld looks solid, but not very easy or straightforward to play. Shyeel Arcanists will see play but Arcanist Mechanics are still a beter starting point, being solos. Ryssovass are good as weaker-but-cheaper Sentinels, but they take a bit more savviness to play right being melee infantry that isn't as resilient as their more expensive cousins. Aelyth will be an intensely fun solo when all his abilities happen to trigger at the right time, but 5-point melee solos arguably aren't super important for your collection at first. The Spears are tricky, being expensive for the few bodies they bring and because you want to fix it so one of them dies jumping on a grenade for someone else so the other two get buffs. There's more, but they all tend to fall in the same kind of category: useful if used right, but either not as easy to use well as an existing alternative or their function isn't essential enough to most lists to warrant getting prioritized.
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Post by GreatBigTree on Jun 17, 2017 1:51:35 GMT
Regarding Retribution, I'd say it depends on whether or not they want to play a Theme force, or not.
If they want to play a Theme, then the All-in-one box includes Sentinels, which aren't allowed in any current Theme. It also has a couple of Mage Hunter pieces, that won't help unless you are playing the Shadows Theme, which seems to be the least popular right now. I'd say it's a solid value if you want to play out of theme, as my current army is. That said, I didn't buy the all-in-one as I started 3 weeks before it was released. The All-in-One plus a Battle Box is a pretty cheap way to start, and Helynna from the Battle Box loves having lots of Jacks.
All-in-One + Battle Box = $180, includes lots of Jacks and the "best" Unit we have, in Sentinels. It's an 80 pt army, at least. Solid core for non-theme play.
If playing into the Forges theme, then a pair of Battle Boxes is a perfect way to start collecting, add at least two Arcanists, and maybe Sylys. My vision of that theme is a shooting list that focuses on repositioning the enemy as a means of control. So using the "Chimera" as Gorgons, and attempting to get extra blade arms to swap out the Griffons for Gorgons where possible. Reduce SPD, then knock them away with Helynna, Battle Mages and Magisters. Use the Heavy Jacks to apply the hurt on one or two things that get through / get drawn in with the reposition effects. Add a Pheonix and you have a great horde control option, while holding off 3 or 4 big scary things. If something has Spd 5, and you drop that by 2, and then push them back even 3"... They can only make a 1" advance from their initial position. Helynna's Rhythm of War lets your Jacks reposition 3" at the end of the turn, so you can keep distance all day long. I haven't tried it yet, but I'm building the pieces. This is a theme with low financial obstacle to buy in, as you have a 30 pt army [or 32] for about $80 USD... plus the two free solos you'd need to buy. About $100 to get you rolling. If I'd known then what I know now, I'd have bought...
$80 2x Battle Box $35 Phoenix $12 Sylys Wyshalnyr $20 2x Arcanist $20 2x Magister $60 2x Battle Mages
$227 Total - Helynna 30 WJ pts, 74 pts list, Theme 12 pts free = 116 pts of models
There's no "cheap" buy-in to the Defenders theme, with hypothetically lots of Houseguard. 'Cause they want solos to buff them. And more solos to get for free. This theme is more infantry intense than the others, so probably is the "worst" way for a new player to enter the game. It doesn't reward taking lots of Jacks, and the 3 in the Battle Box don't do much to help... plus Helynna is really a Jack caster.
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Post by pangurban on Jun 17, 2017 7:39:35 GMT
Regarding Retribution, I'd say it depends on whether or not they want to play a Theme force, or not.
That's a fair comment but (and this goes for any faction, obviously) if the new player wants to build a specific list, be it a theme force or something else, the recommendations kinda go out the window regardless. As I understand it, they're meant to point out models that go well in a variety of lists and are relatively easy to use for new players. Models you can experiment with a bit while learning to understand the game and/or faction and that are unlikely to turn out useless later on. Building towards something specific, which doesn't have to be a bad thing either, defeats that purpose. If someone wants to build a Forges of War list, they need advice about models that can go in FoW. If they want to build a ranged-centric list, there's little point in me telling them about a bunch of melee-only models. If jack-heavy is their preference listing all the good infantry models is not very helpful. If a new player has already made up his mind about the kind of thing he likes, he's not looking for general advice regarding building a collection of models: he'll want to know how he can play that one thing effectively and which models he needs for that.
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Post by GreatBigTree on Jun 17, 2017 12:20:48 GMT
Unfortunately, there aren't any units (Outside of Battlegroups)that transition between our themes / non-theme lists. You've got Non-Vyre Casters, and Arcanists being the only thing common to the theme forces. Those are the only units that a person could purchase and transition between lists, so regardless... a person picks a "specialization" with their first purchases.
So again, had I known then what I know now, I would have planned to build towards a specialization from the get-go, and I think that's information that a starting player should have, so they can get into things more efficiently. They may not want to play a theme, but that should be a choice, not a default.
Regardless, the battle box is a great value, and contains a functioning Battlegroup that's fairly easy to tweak. By using the Chimera as a Gorgon, you technically have a 1 pt army, but the combination of SPD reduction + 3" repo from Helynna is powerful tool, especially in small games. You can effectively neutralize one "Big Bad".
So, yeah, the advice I've given is the advice I'd have wanted from the get-go, when I didn't know anything about the game. I started out simply by buying a Battle Box and two units I liked the look of [Sentinels and Riflemen]... and I don't regret that, I enjoy my army and have had decent success... but I would have liked to have known about themes before I'd started. For example, both Sentinels and Riflemen are "useless" in the Forges Theme, that I'm currently building towards. I still would have bought them, but I'm not everyone.
In terms of units that *any* non-theme list could use, the battle box, Arcanists, and Sentinels would probably fit the bill. To which, my first recommendation of the All-in-One box + a Battle Box does quite nicely. A couple of options for Warcaster, easy-to-use Jacks, key melee and support elements to try out and discover that would likely work in any non-theme build. Plus, super cheap by "army" standards.
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Post by pangurban on Jun 17, 2017 13:21:11 GMT
Again, fair points. Again, it's probably not within the scope of the question asked. That said, it might be a good idea for RandomThoughts to add suggestions for archetype lists to his info (particularly in light of PP's intention of having theme forces make up a lot of the competitively used lists). That way both those players who want to start with a flexible collection and those who want to build towards a specific kind of list without investing in any excess models get pointers that are useful for their specific intentions.
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Post by GreatBigTree on Jun 17, 2017 14:10:09 GMT
To parry/reposte here, your responses haven't generated any suggestions as what to take, just "don't take anything new", which is utterly useless to the scope of the OP. OP wants to know what models a new player should buy. A: If they don't want a theme, they should buy the All-in-one and the Battle box, in whichever order they want. It's a "cheap" way to enter Ret, gives them options at a 75 point list right off the bat, and contains fairly straight forward models to use. Given they're likely to start with 25 point or less games, those purchases will let them play with any of the "key pieces" in a game of that size. A pair of heavies, lots of light jacks, a solid melee unit, support elements... it's all there in a relatively inexpensive package. There is no combination of purchases that makes a better "starting point" for Retribution Non-Theme. B: If they want a Forges theme, they should buy models specific to that theme. In that case, the Forges Theme is best started with the Battle Box and expanding to a second Battle Box, the free Solos, you'll probably want to pay points for the cheap Arcanists, and then a unit or two of the Battle Mages if you like positioning shenanigans. That's not necessarily entry level, but within a few games they'll figure it out. They could bypass the Mages in favour of getting a third battle box / assorted Jacks if they only want Jacks and solos. C: Defenders Theme has no straight-forward, inexpensive starting point. Helynna isn't a great caster for infantry, and the Battle Box doesn't give much in terms of solutions for Heavy Jacks, that I think Defenders would have some trouble with, as the theme benefits come from Houseguard units. They'll probably want a Battle Engine... it's not an easy starting point. D: Shadows Theme has no straight-forward, inexpensive starting point. Helynna works "better" with this than Defenders, but only insomuch as she has reposition effects and some shooting defense that can ensure the arrival of what's basically our Dedicated Assassination build. I don't think it's an easy starting point, which is why I wouldn't recommend it either. The All-in-One has some Mage-hunter pieces, as well as Jacks, and an Arcanist. Vyros with his Jacks work well torwards Assassination / Horde control, so the All-In-One is not a bad way to start this either. So a starting player would want to build towards either A or B, I'd think, and the Battlebox is in both, as are Arcanists. The starting models are in the kits. Shadows can make use of most of the All-in-one, so that could be a good start there as well, but I haven't put much thought into that. You can't use the Sentinels or the Healer from the A-I-O, but you could use the rest. Reflecting, my suggestion would be that if a person is considering Non-Theme or Forge, start with the Battle Box. If they're thinking Non-Theme or Shadows, start with the A-I-O.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 17, 2017 14:42:38 GMT
For Cygnar, the majority of players will start with the Maddox battlebox. So I'll focus on what to buy in order to expand that into a storm division list. However, the Mk2 battlebox, and the All-in-one are also excellent ways to go. I can write some sample lists for those as well if you like.
Cygnar: First Purchases outline
Beginner Purchases: -Mk2 Battlebox (Includes Stryker1, Ironclad, Charger, Lancer) -Mk3 Battlebox (Includes Maddox, Ironclad, Firefly, Lancer, rulebook, tokens, dice) -Mk3 All-in-one (Includes Sloan, Defender, Defender, Charger, Trencher Infantry (10) and grenadiers (3), Trencher Infantry Officer and Sniper, Maxwell Finn, Reinholdt)
Additional Purchases: Squire, Journeyman Warcaster, Arlan Strangeways
List building with maddox: Expanding Mk3 Battlebox to 15 points
Maddox 30* -Ironclad 12 -Firefly 8 -Lancer 10 Stormblade Infantry 10 -Stormblade Officer and Standard 5 _________________________________________ Expanding Mk3 Battlebox to 35 points
Maddox 30* -Ironclad 12 -Stormclad 18 Stormblade Infantry 10 -Stormblade Officer and Standard 5 -Stormgunner 2 -Stormgunner 2 Journeyman Warcaster 4 -Firefly 8 Captain Arlan Strangways 4 _________________________________________ Expanding Mk3 Battlebox to 50 points
Maddox 30* -Ironclad 12 -Stormclad 18 -Lancer 10 -Squire 5 Stormblade Infantry 10 -Stormblade Officer and Standard 5 -Stormgunner 2 -Stormgunner 2 Journeyman Warcaster 4 -Firefly 8 Captain Arlan Strangways 4 __________________________________________ Expanding Mk3 Battlebox to 75 points
Maddox 30* -Ironclad 12 -Stormclad 18 -Lancer 10 -Squire 5 Stormblade Infantry 10 -Stormblade Officer and Standard 5 -Stormgunner 2 -Stormgunner 2 Storm Lances 20 Journeyman Warcaster 4 -Firefly 8 Captain Arlan Strangways 4 Stormblade Captain 5 ___________________________________________________ Expanding Mk3 Battlebox to 75 points in Storm Division Theme
Maddox 30* -Ironclad 12 -Stormclad 18 -Lancer 10 -Firefly 8 -Squire 0 Stormblade Infantry 10 -Stormblade Officer and Standard 5 -Stormgunner 2 -Stormgunner 2 Storm Lances 20 Journeyman Warcaster 0 -Charger 9 Captain Arlan Strangways 4 Stormblade Captain 5
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Post by pangurban on Jun 17, 2017 16:03:45 GMT
To parry/reposte here, your responses haven't generated any suggestions as what to take, just "don't take anything new", which is utterly useless to the scope of the OP. OP wants to know what models a new player should buy. OP has a list already (I made suggestions for it last time it was updated). I'm saying the models released since that last update don't really affect that list. It's still fine as is. Also, the info in OP's thread assumes the battlebox is the first buy, or at least one of the first: it gives suggestions to expand beyond it. Edit: with regards to the All-In-Ones, keep in mind they're not actually an economically efficient option worldwide. Outside the US you're usually cheaper off buying separate models locally, either from a brick&mortar retailer or an online one with low shipping and presumably no import costs.
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Post by GreatBigTree on Jun 17, 2017 20:22:48 GMT
Having read that... the list presumes the purchase of a battle box and makes no mention of the All-in-One. Which, as I noted, is probably the singular best thing you can purchase after a Battlebox if you aren't looking to Theme. Plus, a Battle Box isn't necessarily the best starting point if you plan to theme into Defenders or Shadows down the road.
I wouldn't agree with this.
Specific criticisms:
Themes appear to be the go-to standard, moving forwards. This may be a change for older players, but as a new player, it's normal to me. As such, all suggestions to new players should be tempered in the idea that they will probably want to build towards one theme or another eventually. It's easy to pull out of theme by adding "illegal" choices, but can be tough to build into a theme if you have to buy the whole package. None of our themes allow Named Jacks or Dawnguard of any kind, and prevents the proposed mixtures of Houseguard and Mage Hunters.
The suggestions ignore, for the most part, ranged combat which we can do rather well. It also ignores position-altering capabilities. You might argue that's not beginner level stuff, but I started paying close attention to position altering effects after my 3rd game, and Ret is full of them. The Forges themes list I laid out is one of them.
These suggestions box a new player into Non-Theme, and further enforce a 75% or more Melee concentration, with little to no regard for the control elements present in position altering, which prefers a stronger tilt towards shooting.
The Big Picture
Any discussion about "How to Start Retribution" should include asking, "Which models do you want to play with?". Be it game performance or aesthetics, the answer to that question frames a conversation about Non-Theme vs Theme, Power levels, what to start with, and future purchases.
A: "I like everything, Jacks, Dawnguard, Mage Hunters, Riflemen, all the cool solos..." - Non-Theme, Battle Box + All-in-One. Solos / Units to taste after that.
B: "I like Jacks." "I want to mess with people by moving their models around." - 2x Battle Box, Shyeel Solos + Arcanists.
C: "I like those Houseguard models, really want to have a hard time playing, insist on playing that complicated Battle Engine, plus I want to spend a crap-load of money!" - (I don't know.) Buy a couple boxes of Halberdiers, a unit of Riflemen, that battle engine, then a couple of Heavy Jack kits. I don't know what to suggest for caster... Elara 2? Garryth? Thyron maybe best?
D: "I like the Mage Hunters..." - Start with All-in-one. It costs $140, you get $137 worth of useful models out of it BUT you also get a Sentinel Kit that normally sells for $65. Offer to sell it for $47 and someone will snap it up in a hurry. So you get $137 worth of models for $90, and spend the money from the Sents to buy a unit of Mage Hunters. It's not great, but there's not much buzz about the blatant power of a Shadows theme anyhow...
Because there's no group of starting models that doesn't force you into non-theme, really, so you have to change your answer to suit the asker. There's no single response to "How should I start?" that doesn't get answered with, "What do you like best / how do you want to play?"
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Post by pangurban on Jun 17, 2017 21:31:33 GMT
I think you're just answering a different question than asked. If you ask "what do you want to play with?" that presumes they have models in mind. It's not possible to list suggested models that go with everything anyone might answer to that question. If someone tells me they want to play a predominantly ranged list and asks for suggestions, I'm not going to give them a list of faction staples. I'm telling them what might be good for ranged lists specifically. If someone tells me they want to play a theme force, I won't tell them to buy a collection of models they can build a theme force with. What I will tell them is to figure out the exact list they want to build, and to buy the exact models for that list. The point is, for people who already have a strong idea of what they want to play you give specific advice. You tailor your suggestions to their preferences, you don't give them general pointers. The lists in that thread are general advice, as they're supposed to be.
Also, again, the AIOs are not a great suggestion outside the US. Shipping and especially taxes ruin that. It's why PP doesn't even sell them through non US retailers.
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Post by GreatBigTree on Jun 18, 2017 0:00:19 GMT
Well, they work in Canada, so I guess the non-NA crowd just gets boned. They ARE a great suggestion if you can get them, so it's certainly worth noting, because a bunch of people live in NA. Like, a lot of people.
And, again, there must be some reason a person wants to play Ret. Have you ever met someone that said...
"I know nothing of Warmachine, but I've heard the word Retribution before and I want to play an army with that name in it. Is there something I could play?"
Because if you have, great. Your point of COMPLETE IGNORANCE from the person asking advice is valid. If not, they probably have at least 2 models that they want to play. They probably know if they want to play choppy, shooty, or a mix of both. They probably know if they want a straight-forward plan, or a tricksy plan. And yes, with the four outlines I've given above, I could direct them towards a solid start.
** Creepy Voice ** "Would you like to play a game? Answer these three questions...
1: Name a model you like, that isn't a Warcaster. 2: Do you want mostly choppy, mostly shooty, or an even mixture? 3: Do you want something simple to play, or tricky?
Answer the three, do it a few times if you like, and I can tell you where to start. There are no "Staples" anymore. That mentality is passed. There are staples for Non-Theme, staples for Forges, and the other themes. There's no single answer anymore. The buyer needs to answer some questions first.
In essence, the question is insufficient, regarding starting Retribution. You can't just grab a handful of models and expect it to work out for you, even good models. Because obviously good models (Sentinels with CA) can only be used in non-theme, which isn't necessarily the strongest suit, nor what someone will want to play when they've had 3 games under their belt. Advice to the contrary would be doing the starting player a disservice.
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Post by pangurban on Jun 18, 2017 0:59:38 GMT
I started with Ret. I had a few favourite models, sure, but mostly I wanted to play Ret because I liked the overal aesthetic and because I liked that they were open to combined arms in various ways. What I wanted was to be able to build lists on the spot and not to be tied to any one concept. That meant models that worked with multiple casters, casters that could preferably handle more than one style of army, and basically things that were tried and true in a variety of situations. Models that wouldn't gather dust on a shelf if I felt like changing things up. That doesn't mean I should have blindly bought whatever made the list of suggestions back then, but those models would make a good preselection nonetheless. It's a starting point, not the Ten Commandments writ in stone. As for the AIO, I'm in Europe. I'm not alone in that I don't live in NA. There's quite a lot of us too. If the AIO works for someone, great, get on that. It's a potentially very good deal for locals. Otherwise, it really isn't. I think players should be able to make up their mind whether they want enough of the models in it to be worth it for them. I mean, it's one specific caster (who I think is both a good and flexible caster all round and an excellent caster to start with, but also one who even after gaining some popularity recently isn't exactly the most eligible bachelor in the pack), with three lights (not a usual quantity in most lists) and three solos that are definitely worth considering but equally definitely won't make every list. Honestly, if I wanted to build a solid list for any given specific caster other than probably Vyros2, I'd pass on the AIO even if I lived in the States. Too many models that, while worth their points easily, wouldn't have a place with that caster if I wanted to push for effectiveness. The box' value is really for those who can use it to get a variety of good models for a great price, not for those who want to build a competitive list fast.
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