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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 17, 2017 15:14:21 GMT
I don't like these rules, but I can live with them. I almost never had more than two distance markers on the table at the same time, anyway. Still, it just adds another level of complexity to a complex game. Now I get to explain to new players that they can "Measure anything at any time for any reason" but "only if you follow the rules in this brick of text". It's just one more thing to remember. New players shouldn't start with Steamroller, ever. You need to learn basics before starting competitive games. Those rules are sportsmanship guide for TOURNAMENTS. Something that can discourage new player far easier than any set of measuring rules. Also I've never met someone who wouldn't help new player during competitive games. Apologies, I think we're working with different definitions of 'new players'. I'd still consider them new a couple of months into wmh. And scenario (not necessarily full SR) should be introduced after 3-4 games, imo. Otherwise you get games where one army is kiting the other all game.
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Post by pangurban on Jun 17, 2017 16:33:25 GMT
I don't like these rules, but I can live with them. I almost never had more than two distance markers on the table at the same time, anyway. Still, it just adds another level of complexity to a complex game. Now I get to explain to new players that they can "Measure anything at any time for any reason" but "only if you follow the rules in this brick of text". It's just one more thing to remember. New players shouldn't start with Steamroller, ever. You need to learn basics before starting competitive games. Those rules are sportsmanship guide for TOURNAMENTS. Something that can discourage new player far easier than any set of measuring rules. Also I've never met someone who wouldn't help new player during competitive games. It gives a certain impression of the game though, and the competitive scene is purported to be one of WM/H's qualities. I don't disagree that new players should learn the basics without worrying about SR first, but participating in small events as soon as you know how to play is an ideal way to get better fast and it's often easier to find pickup games if you're ok with playing 75 points and with a SR scenario. The latter shouldn't require abiding by these measuring restrictions at least, but it's a bit silly to assume those won't be relevant soon for new players.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 17, 2017 16:37:36 GMT
Tournaments suck. Their joyless and attract cutthroat people. There are plenty of classy scenarios you can play without going steamroller.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 17, 2017 17:03:29 GMT
Tournaments suck. Their joyless and attract cutthroat people. There are plenty of classy scenarios you can play without going steamroller. I don't think that's a fair description at all. Tournament play can be plenty enjoyable, and successful tournament players are generally polite and kind people. If you're going to do well in tournament, you have to practice games a lot. And you won't get those games if you are a jerk.
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Post by pangurban on Jun 17, 2017 19:29:03 GMT
Tournaments suck. Their joyless and attract cutthroat people. There are plenty of classy scenarios you can play without going steamroller. That's not my experience. Sorry if yours is like that. Either way, SR is what I see played most, even for pickup games. Whether you like it or not it seems that new players often will be playing SR fairly soon, no point in denying that or wishing it wasn't so.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 17, 2017 19:45:51 GMT
I don't think that's a fair description at all. Tournament play can be plenty enjoyable, and successful tournament players are generally polite and kind people. I think it warps the whole meta around scenario for steamroller. You can't even get a silly scenario game going because everybody is too busy getting "Practice Games"
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Post by pangurban on Jun 17, 2017 19:50:40 GMT
I don't think that's a fair description at all. Tournament play can be plenty enjoyable, and successful tournament players are generally polite and kind people. I think it warps the whole meta around scenario for steamroller. You can't even get a silly scenario game going because everybody is too busy getting "Practice Games" Most players consider this a feature, not a bug.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 17, 2017 20:07:04 GMT
Most players consider this a feature, not a bug. And I'm not most players. I hate timed games, Makes it a rush. And then people get pedantic about unusual terrain setups. I don't mind a competitive scene, but you're sorta proving my point how competitive is "My Way or highway!", even though the game isn't ADVERTISED as just a purely tournament scene.
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Post by grabsnikk on Jun 17, 2017 20:22:49 GMT
@rowdy Dragon
Warmahordes is a game designed to be played with scenarios in mind. If you arn't playing scenario then some factions have a massive advantage over their opponents simply because they can just keep backing away and shooting the whole game which sucks and is boring as hell.
If you want to play warmahordes without scenarios then I suggest you play a a variant such as Collossal Wrestling, Grind, etc, although even those have scenarios too.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 17, 2017 20:24:51 GMT
Warmahordes is a game designed to be played with scenarios in mind. I didn't say scenario I said STEAMROLLER. Tournaments.
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Post by grabsnikk on Jun 17, 2017 20:34:29 GMT
Lol well thats my fault for not reading correctly then.
It happens to be a fact that many people like to be and are competitive. This will invariably lead them to want to compete with each other in Steamroller tournaments, and so they will most likely want to practice Steamroller rules and games. There is nothing wrong with this.
If you don't like it then maybe you could suggest that once a month you play fluffy games or something so that it is not as competitive.
Also you could try letting them play on clock or timed turns while you don't have to. They will still gain the experience of playing to a clock while you can just relax and have a fun game.
If they want you to play Steamroller as well and that is all they want to play, then maybe it would be a good idea to try and find a less competitive play group.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 17, 2017 20:39:04 GMT
If you don't like it then maybe you could suggest that once a month you play fluffy games or something so that it is not as competitive. I like to play to win as well so Its not "Noncompetitive". I find the "Competative/ Fluffy" distinction pretty flawed. Im competative, I like to win, I just hate timed rounds and sometimes like the challenge of an alternate scenario from NQ. Its like saying that Smash Bros is/isn't a competitive game. Well I just flat Out like smash bros. Yes I don't like the megaman stage, but I feel like the mario cart stage is perfectly fine. The enemy movements are pre-coordinated, but in your head there is only 1 correct way to play the game (No Items Fox Only Final Destination) that doesn't mean the rest of the game doesn't exist. Clock SUUUCKS (For me). PERIOD. I don't enjoy it. No amount of training will make it a fun experience for me.
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Post by grabsnikk on Jun 17, 2017 20:49:19 GMT
As I said. You can let your opponents play on clock while you dont have to.
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Post by pangurban on Jun 17, 2017 21:14:24 GMT
Most players consider this a feature, not a bug. And I'm not most players. I hate timed games, Makes it a rush. And then people get pedantic about unusual terrain setups. I don't mind a competitive scene, but you're sorta proving my point how competitive is "My Way or highway!", even though the game isn't ADVERTISED as just a purely tournament scene. Not as a purely tournament scene, no. Definitely as a game with a thriving tournament scene, however. Again: feature. People tend to like standardization in their minis games. The playerbase took it upon themselves to standardize GW games for competitive purposes when GW wouldn't. All the minis games that have reached mainstream status have event packages. Players like knowing what to expect. For some players there are some significant downsides to that, personally I'm not altogether happy with every aspect of the game either, but the majority opinion matters more.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 17, 2017 22:04:20 GMT
Seems worse that standard premeasuring in every meaningful way. It is more complicated for sure, but PP wanted to get rid of the "proxy turn" where you played out multiple activations without actually committing to them, and this rule should get rid of that while still allowing you to measure if a charge will reach the target, or a complicated S-shaped walk or what ever. 1" steppers remain legal for example. This wording achieves what they want to achieve while having only a slight impact on the "normal" game play. Now, i too prefer the standard universal pre-measurement, but i can totally live with this, unlike the rules that were tested in the CID. That shit would have me looking for other games :S The "proxy turn" was never an issue unless you made a mistake and didn't like your opponent capitalising on it. Bad change is bad.
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