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Post by macdaddy on Jun 13, 2017 18:12:50 GMT
I am on board the BG points wagon..as well as benefiting from BG abilities. (maybe not the field marshals but spells would be nice)
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jun 13, 2017 19:52:20 GMT
I think being bg/warcaster-independent is what makes the Avatar unique and special. I wouldn't like to lose this feature.
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Post by paradox on Jun 13, 2017 21:24:11 GMT
18pts. Done.
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Post by greytemplar on Jun 14, 2017 21:58:41 GMT
I don't think a straight points drop will work. The problem is that him not coming out of your wj points and the idea of being caster independent are skornergistic.
His main #designspace as it were is that he is caster independent. Which means that he wants to be with casters who want minimal jacks, and by deduction want maximum infantry.
But casters who want maximum infantry only want to spend the bare minimum of their points on jacks. Which conflicts with the avatar who is competing for points with infantry.
Relative to what he cost in mk2, the avatar costs a larger chunk of your non-wj points. Currently he is 26.7% of your list(excluding wj points)at 75 points, but in mk2 he was only 22% of your 50 point list. Infantry have also gotten more expensive in mk3. So it's basically a no-win scenario for the Avatar.
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Post by paradox on Jun 14, 2017 22:51:58 GMT
I don't think a straight points drop will work. The problem is that him not coming out of your wj points and the idea of being caster independent are skornergistic. His main #designspace as it were is that he is caster independent. Which means that he wants to be with casters who want minimal jacks, and by deduction want maximum infantry. But casters who want maximum infantry only want to spend the bare minimum of their points on jacks. Which conflicts with the avatar who is competing for points with infantry. Relative to what he cost in mk2, the avatar costs a larger chunk of your non-wj points. Currently he is 26.7% of your list(excluding wj points)at 75 points, but in mk2 he was only 22% of your 50 point list. Infantry have also gotten more expensive in mk3. So it's basically a no-win scenario for the Avatar. Compare to non-WJP VoJ. Or jacks on a jr. Or marshalled jacks. I definitely think a straight discount can work. I think BG inclusion is extremely unlikely. Its part of the Avatar's basic theme to be non BG. Its still very good, it probably just missed the mark a bit.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Jun 15, 2017 13:42:20 GMT
Honestly, the only thing that I think that he needs is immunity to disruption and maybe a point drop. I never had him not do anything for a battle, even if all he did was to encourage my opponent to overestimate his output and hit him with a disproportionate number of 'jacks. His record with me is pulling three 'jacks so far out of position that I had the easy win.
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Post by paradox on Jun 15, 2017 14:18:42 GMT
Honestly, the only thing that I think that he needs is immunity to disruption and maybe a point drop. I never had him not do anything for a battle, even if all he did was to encourage my opponent to overestimate his output and hit him with a disproportionate number of 'jacks. His record with me is pulling three 'jacks so far out of position that I had the easy win. Id be happy adding back disruption immunity too.
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Post by greytemplar on Jun 15, 2017 16:09:42 GMT
Honestly, the only thing that I think that he needs is immunity to disruption and maybe a point drop. I never had him not do anything for a battle, even if all he did was to encourage my opponent to overestimate his output and hit him with a disproportionate number of 'jacks. His record with me is pulling three 'jacks so far out of position that I had the easy win. For sure he's not total deadweight. He's just a non-optimized use of points in every possible list. As a side thought... What if the Avatar gained the Eye of Menoth ability within CMD10? Then he'd totally be worth it as a force multiplier with no additional changes.
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Post by paradox on Jun 15, 2017 16:15:26 GMT
For sure he's not total deadweight. He's just a non-optimized use of points in every possible list. This sounds like some pretty vicious hyperbole. Please explicate.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jun 15, 2017 18:25:23 GMT
For sure he's not total deadweight. He's just a non-optimized use of points in every possible list. This sounds like some pretty vicious hyperbole. Please explicate. He's no tougher than an indictor, no faster than a reckoner, no more fuel efficient than a sanctifier(and arguably LESS so than a sanctifier under a marshal), carries an immunity we have at will and have a lot of punishment for, and cannot benefit from any of our numerous and excellent battlegroup abilities. The only things he does that are actually unique in faction are PS 19 base, and gaze.
Gaze is...OK. It's not an ability to form a list around, though. Hitting hard is something that we, as a faction, simply do not struggle with.
In short, His only special abilities just kinda don't dazzle, and now he shares the 20 point slot with the eye of truth, who totally does.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Jun 15, 2017 18:28:25 GMT
basically, for 20 pts, eye of truth can replace avatar in every way for the same price while being part of the battlegroup and having a better combination of abilities x.O; This means that amping up his other abilities are really what comes to mind. 10 inch on his gaze is a bit much, but something like 8 would be fine. For those who don't know, I've actually argued the sake of how great the Avatar's gaze is before and it took awhile before I received a private reply by someone who showed me a devious way to combine his and my own tactics. Basically: "The Death Clock" as many people know, attrition games using lots of models, such as spam lists, take awhile to do each turn. Set the avatar near a flag with his gaze up and put expensive models just inching against the 5 inch circle. Of course, cavalry and a lot of other models can still reach the expensive, weakling models behind him BUT they have to either go on the outside of the circle without going into the circle OR go inside the circle and continuously move a bit closer with each inch. Here is where the trick comes: in Warmahordes, all models move in 1 inch intervals. This means that when you move around the gaze, you are actually suppose to re-measure after every inch of movement; you cannot simply pick up the base, measure around the circle and place the model back down. In tournament play, where the death clock is used, continuously tell the opposing player (on their turn) to re-measure after every inch, like they are suppose to. It has to be in exact inch increments and after every measured inch and base placement, make them measure to the avatar's base as well. This dramatically increases the amount of time it takes to avoid the avatar and even MORE time when they are trying to skirt the entire 5 inch circle, as you can simply say "eh, I donno, that seems pretty close. did the base go inside the circle? if so, he's already been affected." The more time you spend discussing the function the more time that runs off THEIR time x.x basically, you're being an Uranus because they are being an Uranus I got more, of course, but I gotta go happy wracking fellow Menonites
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Post by paradox on Jun 15, 2017 18:33:27 GMT
He aleo brings in one package the best qualities of all those jacks you named, except a ranged attack. You'd spend 30+ points to get the same utility. Youre also letting the warjack name limit your analysis. Compare to a marshalled jack (not a Backlash lisbility) or jr ( caster independant buy/boost). How does he stack vs 20pts of solo? Or BE? He can use vassals and choir where those cannot.
Its a question of whether and where he fits in a list. Its never ALWAYS nonoptimal.
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Post by paradox on Jun 15, 2017 18:49:09 GMT
EoT is vulnerable to Backlash and Cortex burning, does not have native spell immunity, does not generate caster-indeoendant focus. So it's, as usual, not a straight upgrade. It's a side-grade. I grant, EoT is very good and many folks prefer his side of the fence right now. But these comparisons are bias-laden.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jun 15, 2017 19:03:32 GMT
He aleo brings in one package the best qualities of all those jacks you named, except a ranged attack. You'd spend 30+ points to get the same utility. Youre also letting the warjack name limit your analysis. Compare to a marshalled jack (not a Backlash lisbility) or jr ( caster independant buy/boost). How does he stack vs 20pts of solo? Or BE? He can use vassals and choir where those cannot. Its a question of whether and where he fits in a list. Its never ALWAYS nonoptimal.
Look, Stormlances made their way into the trencher CID because that was literally the case of using any other Cygnar infantry. The Avatar is the same. I have won a tournament with him in both lists: I want him to be good. Look at my forum avatar, for crying out loud....but we just aren't getting what we need from him.
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Post by streetpizza on Jun 15, 2017 19:29:51 GMT
EoT is vulnerable to Backlash and Cortex burning, does not have native spell immunity, does not generate caster-indeoendant focus. So it's, as usual, not a straight upgrade. It's a side-grade. I grant, EoT is very good and many folks prefer his side of the fence right now. But these comparisons are bias-laden. To further your point EoT cannot fit into Creator's Might unless you're running Malekus and that's a pretty big knock against him. The Avatar does slot into some pretty good roles withing CM as a flank holder or all around bad ass.
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