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Post by droopingpuppy on Jun 13, 2017 4:27:32 GMT
Well, give Storm Lances a weapon with Close Combat and add Lance to the existing melee weapon does nothing on ther performance - they are still able to shoot, they are still able to crack armor, and still they are not doing well while engaged. For the other 'heavy' cavalry, just remove the first paragraph.
If it would be come true then Cygnar would be buffed greatly, for it actually work as an indulgence for Storm Lances to keep them from the further nerfs, while they works as same.
Do you think that the cavalry units with Lance works greatly if Lance on their weapons are dropped? I don't think so. Non-Storm Lance Cavalry needs more great rework, rather than fix such a minor problem.
But, I do think that the interaction with Lance and Close Combat is dumb. It must be fixed, or it is not a bad idea to simply remove Close Combat.
And... we are on the discussion about Trencher(and something more) CID. Storm Knights are not included on the discussion at least for now.
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Post by Swampmist on Jun 13, 2017 4:30:15 GMT
It would actually help a lot. The Lance rules are incredibly wonky, creating scenarios where you kill your charge target with an impact attack, and then (because of inconsistent wording between lance and close combat,) you get no further attacks because neither can be used on a redirected charge (which is not a charge attack, but still happens on a charge turn.)
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jun 13, 2017 4:45:22 GMT
It would actually help a lot. The Lance rules are incredibly wonky, creating scenarios where you kill your charge target with an impact attack, and then (because of inconsistent wording between lance and close combat,) you get no further attacks because neither can be used on a redirected charge (which is not a charge attack, but still happens on a charge turn.) That bug must be fixed. -_- I think that Close Combat is fan the flame on that, though.
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Post by Cryptix on Jun 13, 2017 4:49:15 GMT
I really don't like lance and I'll just leave a suggestion from my own wargame being tested in my community - roll 4D6 damage drop 3 (5d6 drop 2 for Warmahordes) on the charge.
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Post by Sarcastastic on Jun 13, 2017 5:01:48 GMT
If I had to guess it's probably because the Storm Lances ( the weapons) have small axe blades near the base of the handle, and those are what is theoretically used in close quarters. They just don't want to stat this part of the lance as a different weapon because it's attached to the lance. Just a guess, though. Uhlans have the pommel strike as a separate weapon on their card. Just tossing that out there.
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Post by welshhoppo on Jun 13, 2017 8:04:59 GMT
It would actually help a lot. The Lance rules are incredibly wonky, creating scenarios where you kill your charge target with an impact attack, and then (because of inconsistent wording between lance and close combat,) you get no further attacks because neither can be used on a redirected charge (which is not a charge attack, but still happens on a charge turn.) You have seen the ret destors right? Assault, the lance rule, no other melee weapons and quick work. they have a flow chart for a reason.
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blakeh1
Junior Strategist
Posts: 181
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Post by blakeh1 on Jun 13, 2017 17:52:12 GMT
It would actually help a lot. The Lance rules are incredibly wonky, creating scenarios where you kill your charge target with an impact attack, and then (because of inconsistent wording between lance and close combat,) you get no further attacks because neither can be used on a redirected charge (which is not a charge attack, but still happens on a charge turn.) Yeah, this a problem. The MK II wording was actually clearer it stated "This model cannot make an initial attack with this weapon during an activation it charged at least 3". Now it is "This model cannot make an additional attack with this weapon during an activation in which it charged at least 3". So before Vengers for example could still get the additional attack part of Kreoss 2's feat. Now they cannot. It really should go back to the first wording
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jun 14, 2017 13:31:54 GMT
It would actually help a lot. The Lance rules are incredibly wonky, creating scenarios where you kill your charge target with an impact attack, and then (because of inconsistent wording between lance and close combat,) you get no further attacks because neither can be used on a redirected charge (which is not a charge attack, but still happens on a charge turn.) You have seen the ret destors right? Assault, the lance rule, no other melee weapons and quick work. they have a flow chart for a reason. Everyone knows that Destor is simply weird. It is like as a mountain of bugs. It would actually help a lot. The Lance rules are incredibly wonky, creating scenarios where you kill your charge target with an impact attack, and then (because of inconsistent wording between lance and close combat,) you get no further attacks because neither can be used on a redirected charge (which is not a charge attack, but still happens on a charge turn.) Yeah, this a problem. The MK II wording was actually clearer it stated "This model cannot make an initial attack with this weapon during an activation it charged at least 3". Now it is "This model cannot make an additional attack with this weapon during an activation in which it charged at least 3". So before Vengers for example could still get the additional attack part of Kreoss 2's feat. Now they cannot. It really should go back to the first wording It is clear that Close Combat must be removed from the game. After than we can talk about the Lance ability.
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Post by gunmageintraining on Jun 14, 2017 13:49:49 GMT
Gah, overcomplicated crap. I understand the thematic reason why Lances exist, but they aren't playing well the the rules and are prone to complications it seems, so the simple answer is to get rid of it. Lower the pow of the 'Lance' weapons and just give it back to them via things like brutal charge or situational weaponmasters or whatnot. Would it require a rework of all Lance wielding Cavalry? Yes... but big deal.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 14, 2017 20:04:13 GMT
Week 2 changes:
Colonel Markus ‘Siege’ Brisbane: Several battle reports have shown that the Rocket Turret is too easy to tie up. These changes should make the Rocket Turret a little more consistently powerful.
Rocket Turret
Gains Gun Platform:
Gun Platform - This model can make ranged attacks even while in melee.
Turret rule gains the following:
This model does not suffer blast damage.
Grenadier: Adding Brutal Charge helps differentiate the Grenadier from other shooting lights by adding diversity to its functions.
Mattock weapon gains Brutal Charge.
Storm Lances: After quite a long and heated Dev Talk we decided to bring the Storm Lances down a more “Armor Cracking” role. Removing Electro-Leap from their weapons combined with the changes to Katherine Laddermore should reduce their effectiveness at range, especially when targeting infantry units. Increasing the POW of their lances helps push them into the high-damage direction we would like to see them go.
Remove the Electro Leap special rule from the Electro Bolt weapon.
Lance melee weapon becomes POW 8.
Trencher Chain Gun Crew: Reducing the cost of the Trencher Chain Gun Crew will hopefully make room for it in more lists.
Reduce cost to 4.
Trencher Commando Officer: Commando’s are very nearly there. Reducing their point cost slightly with their Command Attachment may be enough to put them into more lists while also creating a larger cap in points between them and other Trencher units.
Cost 4.
Trencher Express Team: It was brought up these are the mobile artillery crews of the Trenchers. It makes sense they would be hiding in tree lines or rubble waiting for their target to get close or walk past.
Gains Pathfinder.
Reason: Further defining that role.
Patrol Dog: As we continue to tweak the Patrol Dog, please continue to submit feedback to the usefulness of Noisy as a special rule.
The RNG of the Noisy special action was extended to 8”.
Major Katherine Laddermore: Coupled with our changes above to Storm Lances we feel this will open up room for other Storm Knight models and units. It also brings Storm Lances in line with not only other cavalry units, but with the direction we would like to take them.
Replace Electrocharger with Veteran Leader [Storm Knight].
Veteran Leader [Storm Knight] - While in this model’s command range, other friendly Storm Knight models gain +1 to attack rolls.
Trencher Blockhouse: The interaction of the Blockhouse and Trencher Master Gunners was overshadowing the same option for Trencher Cannon Crews. This change is a slight tone-down of the Blockhouse while also hopefully opening list and table space for the Trencher Cannon Crew. Reducing the Trench Network to two trenches should help alleviate some of the pain felt when playing with a more populated board.
No longer a Weapon Crew.
Trench Network reduced to two trenches.
Gravediggers Theme Force: Disallowing rangers as a free point option seemed to almost entirely remove them from lists. With this change players will feel less handicapped in their unit choices.
Change the second benefit to the following:
For every 20 points of Ranger or Trencher models/units in this army, you can add one weapon crew unit, command attachment, or solo to the army free of cost. Free models/units do not count toward the total point value of Ranger or Trencher models/units in the army when calculating this bonus.
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Post by Aegis on Jun 14, 2017 20:18:09 GMT
I pretty much agree with all points.
The nerf on Lances is pretty big, but they were also a lot over the top. Playtest will be needed to see how they are with this new rules and if their price is right for what they do, but on paper it could work.
Everything else seem fine, expecially the dog that now seems exactly at the right spot. Threat 15" for his ability is just enough to make the ability usable in some situations without on the other side being to easy to apply like it was in the first iteration of his rules.
In general, it seems they are doing a good job, imo.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 14, 2017 20:19:55 GMT
My synopsis of the stuff I care about
Theme Force - good change making Rangers count, I may try Siege 1 gravediggers yet
Storm Lances - fine change, I said e-leap on the gun in particular was the issue, was not expecting a pow buff so that's nice, it defines their role a bit better
Laddermore - not a fan of vet leader, I took her for the damage buff, now she has lost that I would find it hard to justify spending 8 points on her
Commando UA - great
Blockhouse- understandable
Grenadier - yep
Express team - kl I guess
Turret - still needs to shoot the turn its put into play Dog - great
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Post by mekame on Jun 14, 2017 20:24:54 GMT
Well, Laddermore definately isn't an auto-include anymore. Still, she might be a viable alternative to the firefly given her lance still has lightning generator on the gun and she had veteran leader. Probably depends on how much lightning you are bringing.
As for the lances... I am fine with this? More stopping power and we can still scythe through models in melee, while it opens up a niche for the strider, fireflies, storm towers, blazers etc to shock infantry to death.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 14, 2017 20:48:49 GMT
I am very pleased with this outcome for the Lances. The e-leap on their guns was interfering with their design intention, and extra melee damage is awesome. S2ige still needs some help, but he's getting a dev talk soon, so that's fine. Grenadier is better in melee now? Okay, I'll take it. Blockhouse looks about where it needs to be. 2 trenches is less abusable than 3, and the Master Gunner giving it an extra shot was a bit much.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 14, 2017 21:38:42 GMT
I think lances are merely 'very good' now. Laddermore nerf won't stop me taking her but might have me bringing a firefly more than I currently do. She just hits so damn hard and is so hard to kill.
Rest of the changes are good except for the blockhouse. With only 2 trenches it doesn't cover enough ground for its points now, imo.
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